Featured Toyota's thoughts on EV adoption

Well if it's a long electric range plug-in you're needing - you could always go for this bad boy;


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Or the all electric Taycan?
Tbh all i want is a Hybrid/Phev/Bev that is suitable for a daily 200 miles across the UK.
Plus its needs to tow and be suitable as a family car. Lol
Been a prius driver for 18 years so perhaps when it gets to 20 i will switch.

 

Its fun watching rabid consumer pontificate and pick sides while damning others. I'm sure these same people just adored Toyota when the Prius came out. I think its important to now forget that the end goal here is money.

Polestar giving toyota crap for not "moving fast enough" to save the planet is hilarious. Close your plant Polestar. This is what you can do to save the planet. No, all its for is too get EV radical consumers on board with their brand.

I too think Hybrids are the way to go until SS is nailed down. These EV's are just too heavy.

 

Not sure why you are specifically responding to me.

Was Polestar brought up in this thread? The are a smaller company, I don't think their EV only stance is driving government policy. Their parent company also plans to sell mild hybrids for some time yet. Closing a Toyota ICE car plant will do more to save the planet than closing a Polestar one.

Waiting on solid state batteries is like calling for fossil fuels to be used as a bridge fuel. I expect fossil fuels to remain in use for some time, as change of this scale takes time. I'm not going to accept it as a policy for combating global warming though, as calls to do so are more about staying with the status quo that lead to this mess. Stating current Li-ion aren't good enough, and waiting on solid state, or some other break through, is another delaying tactic.

If that break through does happen, what do we do about the higher cost, and low production volume? Just keep making ICE cars? Weight hasn't kept BEVs from reaching 400 and more miles range. Hydrogen FCEVs are also heavy, yet that hasn't kept Toyota from trying to sell them.

 

• Hybrids are the way to go - the problem is some hybrids like the 'mild' are functioning frauds. I remember having to explain the engineering behind why a 'mild hybrid' will never achieve Prius mileage. Yet even today, Peugeot claims impossible performance from their 48 V, mild hybrid. Worse, hybrids can increase the total parts count which reduces reliability ... one part is more reliable than two - heard at the memorial for a German rocket scientist.
• These EV's are just too heavy - as if the ICE luxury cars, Hummers, and other conspicuous consumption vehicles were butterfly light. I drive a 2019 Tesla Model 3 Standard Range Plus that weights with me, the dogs, and tool box, 3,800 lbs yet excels over our previous Prius cars. Only the light weight, 2014 BMW i3-REx at 2,900 lbs held near equivalent utility.

Supply sources get resolved by having a demand. This leads to the hard work, innovation, and investment to expand the supply to meet the demand.

Bob Wilson

 

Those are fun sound bytes, but they are rarely valid. Mild Hybrids Might increase total part count, but one part is not intrinsically more reliable than two.

You worked with DEC / VMS Bob. Did you ever work with a NONSTOP system by Tandem? Or the AT&T 3B duplex computer systems? Both used fully duplicated processors and an OS designed to detect and isolate errors. The parts can be swapped while the systems are online and running at full capacity.

How about NASA rockets? They use the concept of needing a quorum from multiple controllers to agree before a rocket can launch.

What is TRUE is that duplicate parts might contribute to a shorter MTBF (time between failures) of the individual parts if the parts are prone to failure. But well designed parts will outlast the life of the system.

Bob's post asserts that "Peugeot claims impossible performance" but what is the basis for that assertion? Mild hybrids are based on the proven fact that running the engine at idle can waste huge amounts of gas in an urban area. Another common waste of gas is the energy needed to accelerate a mass to 55 MPH and then the heat generated by the brakes to slow the vehicle to accommodate traffic.

A mild hybrid can minimize the waste from idling by using engine stop/start technology such as a) integrated alternator / starter and b) careful timing of the cylinders as the engine halts. The careful positioning of the piston near TDC allows the engine control to inject fuel and supply a spark to the cylinder, actually starting the engine before it finishes going through the first revolution.

The addition of a regenerative braking system allows recapture and redeploying of much of the energy expended in acceleration. Proven regenerative braking systems include those based on hydraulic reservoir, flywheels (inertia) and batteries, among others.

I don't think that there are mild hybrids that are as smooth and easy to drive as the Prius, but it might be possible to create a very efficient car.

 

All ICE cars waste huge amounts of energy as heat even when you are driving them at their most efficient RPMs and slow enough to not have too much air resistance.

Mike

 

Plug-ins waste energy in the generation of electricity, transmission line losses (Unless you generate your own electricity) and battery charging losses. There is no free lunch.

JeffD

 

A relatively smaller cost of electricity, ~1/3d, compared to the cost of gasoline used to move the same distance.

IMHO, a PHEV can be an EV with 'training wheels.' It lets owners understand how EV operation works without the terror of learning something different.

Bob Wilson

 

Once amortized - PV solar DOES in fact provide not only a free lunch, but carbon and filth exhaust free as well.

 

For the cost, money and material, mild hybrids can have a big impact on carbon emissions, and thus fuel efficiency. No, they won't match a full hybrid, but you can make three mild hybrids for the cost of one full. The costs are low enough that every new ICE car being made today should have a mild hybrid system.

 

When discussing PHEV's we sometimes forget that they remain plugged in when not driving. Our PHEV is rated for 26 miles electric range on a full charge - it gets 30 miles. We have a level 2 charger that will completely charge the car in 2.5 hours.

It was not unusual for us to drive over 90 miles a day on electric range with this plug in. A 30 mile round trip to drop the kids off at school- plug in when we got home and run errands off and on all day plugging in at each return home and then picking the kids up another 30 mile round trip then returning home to run the kids around again after supper etc. We easily averaged 90 miles a day on electric with a PHEV that had a 26 mile electric capacity. This is not hard at all to do with a home base level 2 charger.

It fits our lifestyle perfectly - no need for us to pay more for an EV with a 300 mile range that we would hardly ever access. If we want to go on a long trip the PHEV gets 50 mpg with a 12-gallon gas tank over a 600-mile range - no range anxiety there.

I don't begrudge people their EV's they are wonderful transportation vehicles - we may have one eventually. Our PHEV cost us right at $30,000 is roomy, has all the modern safety suites a perfect economical fit for our lifestyle.

I agree PHEV's can be a stepping stone- for us it was gas vehicles for the first 40 years of driving - then a Prius which opened our eyes to the money that could be saved with a hybrid vehicle - then our current PHEV. The next step might well be an EV for us.

 

Personally, I would prefer going after low hanging fruit like the 12 V lead-acid battery. Replace it with a lighter, smaller, modern chemistry battery and the weight saving alone would improve fleet efficiency. Make wheels from fiber impregnated, injection molded plastic to further reduce weight would help. But these are marginal improvements versus major architecture changes.

Bob Wilson

 

Not sure why Solid state batteries would be the way to go, or why toyota has been waiting. They likely will take a long time to get to the price level of lithium iron phosphate. Toyota already back tracked and promises them first in hybrid because of costs. Many of us thought that toyota was using this as an excuse to push hydrogen and use their political action groups to pressure governments against plug-ins. New battery plants in north america and china are being built to provide enough normal NMC, NCA, and LFP batteries. Companies would not be doing that if they thought they were not good enough. Solid state will come, but it takes time, and is no reason to delay. I am glad toyota has decided to finally get in the game and is changing management to do it.

That too heavy thing was a hydrogen talking point not anything to do with reality. To get a proper range a suv would be so heavy that it couldn't accelerate properly. Even the early rav4 electric proved that was wrong. Weight is a factor in acceleration and handling. Drive a camry hybrid and a tesla model 3 long range. The heavier tesla is going to accelerate faster and handle better despite the heavier weight. What is the downside again?

 

PHEVs can make excellent use of batteries. Government policies and human behavior has impeded that use in the past. Leading to higher emissions than if ICE cars were sold instead. Better written policies and education could better support PHEVs in helping with the issue, but it is probably easier to focus on BEVs.

With the OT, Toyota is calling more for no plug hybrids. Their PHEVs are great, but they aren't exactly making many of those.

 

By not estimating how good they would be, Toyota estimated way to few batteries and can not produce enough rav4 primes. The prius phv was built with the idea that plug-ins won't work so why put a big enough battery in it to accelerate properly just use gas and to have better feel than the hybrid. The next prime built on the 2023 prius also put a big enough battery in it.

There is definitely a place for well built phevs. A lot of toyota's past strategy was to fight against them. If they hadn't they would be better situated for plug in vehicles. I'd love to see toyota do an awd only pick up truck (probably tundra) phev. Off road driving and towing seem like very good places were a phev can perform much better than a hybrid or bev.

 

Toyota Canada CEO also says hybrids are the way to go in Canada.
https://motorillustrated.com/toyota-canada-ceo-says-hes-afraid-canadas-zev-mandate-will-fail/110740/

Problem is no one in Canada can get their hybrids even though he says 40% of the brands sales will be electrified (hybrid, PHEV, FCEV, and BEV) this year.

 

The market will decide. I see Hyundai/Kia as one of the more enlightened companies,
And aggressively pursuing many options

 

I'm not sure if this will add insult to injury, but Toyota will (try and) help you find incentives for buying their EVs.
Toyota EV Incentive Finder Powered by EV Life Helps Customers Find Incentives, Tax Credits and More - Toyota USA Newsroom

Uses a third party service called EV Life to determine if you can get incentives, rebates and tax credits on their EVs and PHEVs. Incentives could be as mundane as HOV access. It's right on the Toyota site for their EV and PHEVs (that you probably can't get). You just have to scroll down until you see the title Imagine the Benefits.