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My dash is lit up like a Christmas tree!

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Care, Maintenance & Troubleshooting' started by Gearbreaker, Jan 26, 2023.

  1. Gearbreaker

    Gearbreaker Junior Member

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    Hi all.
    My 2014 Vs dash is telling me it is very very sick. A couple of weeks ago I had to avoid hitting a bozo on the highway. The ABS came on, the smoke cleared and I went on my merry way. A few days ago I got in and when I started the car the PCS light came on. I thought no big deal as this can happen when the logo sensor gets dirty or icy. The next day I got in and life was good again. No lights. I mailed my letters at the post office, got back in and now the hazzard lights would occasionally give me a quick flash. Odd. By the time I got home the hazzards were flashing more often than not. It was late so I disconnected the battery and tried to get some sleep. Like the idiot that I can be, I hadn't thought about getting back in the hatch to reconnect the battery. After managing to get the hatch open I reconnected the battery and now the hazzards were on full time at a seemingly normal rate. I took the car for a drive and the flash rate didn't vary as I have read other people's cars had. I pulled into my driveway and did a little research. I then took the car for another drive to check the flash rate. This time the PCS light came on. I figured that if I cycled the ABS pump everything may get better. I found a patch of ice, drove over it with one wheel and locked up the brakes. No joy, crickets, no ABS at all. Now I had the ABS light AND the traction light was on. Yes, the hazzards were happily blinking the whole time. I pulled in my driveway and did a little more research. I checked the ABS fuses and all were okay. I wanted to take another stab at kicking on the ABS pump. I connected my Snap-on Solus and told the ABS pump to run. Crickets, except for that damn hazzard light relay! Now I had not only the PCS light, traction control light. But also the ABS light and the brake shoe warning light. Apparently, and now obvious to me, the ABS pump builds pressure so that the parameters and brake initialization sequence can be performed but because the pump wouldn't run none of the parameters could be set. Now lotsa' lights were on. Normally when a starter motor won't run you whack it with a hammer and you can get it to run one last time but this isn't a situation that that will help. :) I have gone from bad to worse as now I have added the brake "shoe" light and parking brake idiot lights to join in the party. I am pretty sure that I need to replace the ABS motor unit, not an easy job but ya' gotta do whuch ya' gotta do. If anyone has any input or thoughts I'd appreciate it. Better yet if anyone is parting out a Gen 3 or Gen 3 V I could use a few small parts as well as the ABS pump. Thanks for reading.
     
  2. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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  3. ColoradoBoo

    ColoradoBoo Senior Member

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    Whenever I hear of the dreaded Christmas-tree lights in a Prius, my first question is, "How old is the 12-volt battery?"

    Wouldn't hurt running a battery-tester on her. When the 12-volt starts going out, out comes the Christmas tree!!
     
  4. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    We may have a new winner in the genre of "all the things I've tried in lieu of getting the trouble codes." :)

    Will your Solus thingy show you the trouble codes? Can you post those here?

    If it won't, the codes from all the brake/skid related lights (probably not the PCS though) can be retrieved with no more than a piece of wire:

    Blink (a/k/a Flash) Codes – How to. | PriusChat

    The hazard-flasher business probably won't have an explanation in terms of codes. I'll guess that's something electrical, maybe just jostled when you avoided the bozo. The hazard-switch circuit is wired to the brake actuator (as an input, when things aren't b0rked), and at least you're not getting the shorted-to-speed-signal flashy business, but simply pulling that line to ground is all it takes to make the flashers flash.

    Even the trouble codes you have, which likely won't be directly about that, may shed some light on it, such as by indicating what else may have been jostled when you avoided the bozo.
     
  5. Gearbreaker

    Gearbreaker Junior Member

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    Sometimes the obvious isn't obvious to me. The battery is "only" nine years old, a great place for me to start. :) Great thought. I have a load tester and will check it as soon as possible. Thank you for jogging my 60 year old brain.
     
  6. Gearbreaker

    Gearbreaker Junior Member

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    I pulled the codes before doing anything and there were none. I then told the pump to run and after that I got a power steering code and four wheel sensor codes. I'm starting to lean toward the battery voltage being an/the issue. I'm going to check the fuses and relays. It's interesting how different things look after a night's rest and a few peoples suggestions.
     
  7. Gearbreaker

    Gearbreaker Junior Member

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    I checked the grounds and even loosened some of the ground points and retightened them. I will need to pull the wiper assembly to get a closer look at just whats going on under the hood. A rusted actuator connection would be welcomed at this point. Interesting that there were no codes in any module until I tried to ran the pump. Even more interesting is that I never got a service light but codes are now stored. Because the parking brake indicator is lit with no SES light it's extra fishy and again leads me to the battery's condition. I'll also check the braking system and make sure it's not somehow running in the brake service mode. If it is, I think it would tell half of the story.
     
  8. ColoradoBoo

    ColoradoBoo Senior Member

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    9 years? Holy moly! My wife noticed hers in her 2017 will be 6 years old this year and wants me to replace it (it, still, tests fine)...so what Momma wants Momma gets!
     
  9. sam spade 2

    sam spade 2 Senior Member

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    YOU are not doing anybody any favors encouraging folks to go directly to trouble codes and trust them to solve every problem in the world.

    It has been pointed out to YOU several times that you can NOT rely on trouble codes if your 12 V system has low voltage.
    This is pointing that out to you yet again.

    Check the 12 V battery and it's main connections first.
     
  10. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    Yes, isn't it remarkable how many times I've been represented as telling folks to trust codes to solve every problem (which is kind of rich, considering), and how many times I've been pressured to agree with you that low battery voltage makes the trouble codes so unreliable it's not worth even knowing what they are, and how many times that representation and that pressure has come from, specifically, you, or your former screen name of several years back.

    Your grasp of what you're talking about has little improved over that long stretch, and you'll understand if I don't invest the same effort toward helping with that as I may have in years past.

    Turning again to more solvable problems ...

    That is probably a worthwhile step, especially in light of the hazard-light behavior. Something flaky right there at that connector isn't the only possible cause, but it would be simple, and it's not ruled out.

    It sounds like you might be thinking there's one Service Engine Soon, or service, light that should be on whenever there are trouble codes anywhere, but that's not how the Prius works. There are a couple dozen different ECUs and they set their own codes and light their own lights. The engine light will be on chiefly if there are engine codes. The brake system has its own codes, and works the ((!)), ABS, BRAKE, and VSC skiddy-car light.

    (There are some exceptions. The engine light, a/k/a MIL, maintenance indicator light, is also specified to turn on for certain codes from the power management control ECU, which ordinarily uses the triangle light. And the brake system can set certain codes, and light its own lights, for certain issues that aren't in the brake system.)

    Seeing those lights on and having a scan tool tell you there aren't codes can be a pretty common experience depending on the scan tool you're using. Not all of them can talk to all the car's ECUs. The brake system, in particular, has a way to give you its codes with no scan tool at all, and I don't hesitate to use any time a scan tool is giving odd results.

    Blink (a/k/a Flash) Codes – How to. | PriusChat

    A quick battery voltage check is easy to do and not a bad idea, even if it is less often the source of all badness than Sam seems to think. I would be even more suspicious of it if you said you had a C1241 code (or 41 blink code), as the brake system will set that for you if it sees its supply voltage or any of several internal voltages going out of conservative limits.

    Which brake service mode are you thinking of, and how are you planning to check?
     
  11. nicoj36

    nicoj36 Active Member

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    Just replace your battery
     
    ColoradoBoo likes this.
  12. Gearbreaker

    Gearbreaker Junior Member

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    Lol, my mama gets what I give her. A small price to pay for being able to do nothing but watch TV, go shopping and talk on the phone all day. :)
     
  13. sam spade 2

    sam spade 2 Senior Member

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    There is no "grasp" involved.
    It is the TRUTH.
    The truth will set you free.

    None is so blind as those who WILL not see.

    So......as long as I am here and you continue to fail to mention low voltage as a possible cause of multiple warning lights that show up all of a sudden.......I will correct your oversight for the benefit of others.

    What you are doing is NOT generally helpful.
     
  14. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    As would be seen, I imagine, in a comparison of the number of people we've been able to talk through complete resolutions of their issues. A good evening to you too.
     
  15. Gearbreaker

    Gearbreaker Junior Member

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    Lol, skiddy car... that's too funny. Okay, the battery voltage is right up there where it should be both while loaded and sitting idle. Even the ECM agrees. I managed to pull the codes... I methodically opened each valve in the ABS system and they all clicked so I know that the brake module is working. I then tried to bleed the entire braking system and it sat there and said no way. It didn't respond to any of the bleed commands. However, when I told the ABS pump to run it tried to run and made a sound like a cheap key-in buzzer in a 70s Chevy. I think that it may have been a current limiter that was monitiring the current to the motor? The module would tell the pump relay to close, the stalled pump would say, I'm not turning and the BCM would say , hey, you're drawing too much current and it would in turn, open the relay. The process is happening over and over making the buzz. If course this is just a theory. It may have been just the motor buzzing. Stay tuned, more to come. 20230127_142948.jpg
     
  16. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    I'm not sure I'd know that exact sound by heart, but the pump's ordinary normal sound might be likened to a joy buzzer, or an uninspired rattlesnake. Is it like that?

    The C1345 and C1368 are related. C1451 makes me crabby; here's why. Are the five codes in your photo the only ones, or does that Solus screen scroll to show more?

    What is the current situation with the hazard lights?

    What voltages did you read, and what were your loaded and idle conditions, by the way? Better off just posting them, around here; just saying "there where it should be" is like a red cape to a bull ... you may find out what I mean.

    When you say "the ECM agrees", do you mean you looked at the battery voltage PID in its data list, or just that it hadn't given a code about it?

    To my knowledge, the ECM is not one of the ECUs that will voice strong opinions about the battery voltage. The brake/skid ECU is one of the ones that will, and so will the Transmission Control ECU (which is a very grandiose name for the one that moves the single metal thingy in and out of the transmission when you park and unpark).
     
    #16 ChapmanF, Jan 27, 2023
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2023
  17. Gearbreaker

    Gearbreaker Junior Member

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    Hazzard lights are just blinking happily away. I pulled the fuse so as not to draw attention of my neighbors....

    Yes,those are the only codes that are set. I hadn't given that right rear sensor any thought but perhaps the system perhaps has switched on a sort of limp mode due to the sensor not reporting correctly. That could possibly stopping tbe pump from running and not let me calibrate any of the braking system? Your description of the motor sound is pretty accurate to what I was hearing. I think I next need to shake down that non reporting sensor.
     
  18. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    I would defer the rear speed sensor for later; I don't share the belief that it would account for the locked-out behavior.

    C1451 very much does lock out the pump from running. That's what C1451 is for. So ordinarily I would steer you at that first, because nothing else is happening while C1451 is there.

    Only problem is, you clear C1451 by doing the bleed procedure, and you said you couldn't get that working.

    Also, the specific history of your issue has some unusual bits. C1451 doesn't normally appear by itself; it appears when you go into ECB Invalid Mode using a scan tool. But I didn't hear that you did that.

    C1345 doesn't appear unless the system wants to learn its linear solenoid offset. That's generally a once at installation thing, or if you have just cleared the offset to learn it again. (It may be that a started but not completed bleed procedure leaves it in that state.)

    And this story began when you maneuvered violently to avoid a bozo, and there is this hazard-lights business, which is definitely not normal, and suggests an electrical connection might have been jostled. Honestly, if it were my car, that would be floating to the top of my investigate list, as I might see what else could have been jostled. Have you had the cowl off to look at that connector yet?

    You might have missed my question about voltage in #16 ... I edited that probably while you were posting.

    Have you popped the hazard light button itself out of the instrument panel and unplugged it, to see if the lights stop flashing? (I'm going to guess they don't, but it's still a guess until you try it.)
     
  19. Gearbreaker

    Gearbreaker Junior Member

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    Yes, I was monitoring the battery voltage through the Solus the whole time and a multimeter on the fuse block. The ECU agreed. 13.8 idle, key on engine off. 14.1 key on, engine running. I could have read the cranking voltage drop but im satisfied enough without dragging out a scope. Hanging the load tester on the battery for 20 seconds showed in the green but I don't remember the exact number. It's a tough call because the car has a rather small battery but 20 seconds is good enough for me. It was all better than expected. Never gave it a thought to check the ABS module voltage. I'm not even sure it it can be read separately from the ECM (ECU). This was all done with the lights off.
     
  20. Gearbreaker

    Gearbreaker Junior Member

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    Yep, I did pull the hazzard switch.... hazzards kept right on going. Yes, I created the 1451 but the problem hasn't let me back out of it. The whole system is on strike. I will get to taking apart the cowell after I shake down the RR wheel sensor. The codes in the list were remaining after I "cleared all codes", meaning thet are all current and resident. I haven't yet pulled off the cowell/wipers. I still need the car for work as well as having limited time to troubleshoot.