Too Many in the HOV Lane

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Curtis SAC @ Aug 31 2006, 04:00 PM) [snapback]312446[/snapback]</div>

As I see it, there are two main reasons for carpool lanes:

1. reduce traffic congestion
2. reduce air pollution

A single person driving in a Prius does nothing much to help point #1, but does a really good job with #2.

In comparison, take another carpool lane user: Moms & Dads who are "carpooling" with their babies/kids. In this example, there is no benefit on either of the above points. If the kids aren't old enough to drive, there is no reduction in either traffic or pollution by carpooling.

I say, instead of cutting off the number of stickers for hybrids prematurely, there should be a law passed to eliminate "parental carpools." That will free up more space in the carpool lane to reward people who are making choices/sacrifices (i.e. carpooling or buying hybrid cars) that help solve some of these problems of modern life.

- hpajlp

 

As an HOV lane user for most of hte past 10+ years I've noticed that violations go up significantly in the winter (when it's dark) and then taper off again when the days get longer.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Curtis SAC @ Aug 31 2006, 04:00 PM) [snapback]312446[/snapback]</div>

The HOV lane access for hybrids has been extended to 2011, I believe.

I agree with your concerns, though: I see a lot of cars in the diamond lane on 101 between Capitol and 880, and the lane often moves SLOWER than the regular lanes, which causes me to wonder why bother using it for the short distance I travel on 101.

OTOH: I can use the diamond lanes on the ramp, which DOES save me some significant time...

 

when i lived in the bay area, the express lanes were monitored by cameras. i know of one person who was mailed a ticket for HOV violations. dont they still do that?? those violators you see may not being getting away with anything

this was the Montague expressway in san jose

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Curtis SAC @ Aug 31 2006, 05:00 PM) [snapback]312446[/snapback]</div>

I feel much the same. As someone else pointed out, HOV lane access for hybrids has been extended to 2011 with the governor's signature on AB 2600.

If Caltrans wants to reduce the congestion in the HOV lanes, they should first request the CHP to enforce the law and give violators those $271 tickets.

I drive on 80 about eight miles to the Bay Bridge on my way to work. I see violators nearly every day.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TonyPSchaefer @ Nov 29 2006, 06:08 AM) [snapback]355180[/snapback]</div>

Hold on, I'm not talking about gas mileage.

In fact, I don't think the purpose behind creating carpool lanes on freeways has anything to do with gas consumption or MPG. In my prior post, I put forward that the primary benefits I see of of carpooling are reduced traffic congestion and reduced air pollution, neither of which can be measured in MPG.

My Toyota dealer told me the Prius can achieve up to a 90% reduction in emissions compared to a "normal" car. I admit I do not have the exact facts to back these stats up (need to research further, maybe the answer is posted in another forum), but assuming this assertion is true, it would mean the air pollution reduction "benefit" from one person driving a Prius is equal to at least 3-4 people leaving their cars at home and carpooling together in one car.

So, by this standard, allowing hybrids into the carpool lane DOES support the purpose of carpool lanes.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hpajlp @ Nov 28 2006, 11:27 PM) [snapback]355143[/snapback]</div>

Yet please don't assume you know the whole story when you see "mom" driving two or three kids. What if - as in the case of many, this really IS a carpool of kids where the option was one car for each kid with respective mom driving? In that situation, we are cutting down on pollution and congestion. And if we didn't allow this, where do we draw the line? Do the passengers all have to have jobs? Full time? Hourly or salaried? Each one must have a driver's license?

Gets complicated in a hurry. I'd much rather see mom and two kids in the carpool lane (in her EV, natch) than a solo Prius driver. But hey, that's just me.

 

Speaking of HOV violaters:

I used to ride a motorcycle to work every day, splitting lanes in the HOV lane the entire way. I would see quite a few HOV lane violaters. They generally all attempt to use the same tricks, jack up the passenger headrest, put down the passenger visor, use an illegal level amount of tint on the front windows, pretend they're talking to someone in the back/front seat when they see a motorcycle approaching, etc. I never saw a fake dummy being used, but it always made me laugh and made me think, is 10 or 15 minutes of your time worth a $300 ticket?

However, I've also seen a lot of cars I thought we're single occupants in the HOV lane, but when passing them saw the baby or small child in the backseat, or even someone with the passenger seat reclined and a passenger sleeping. I really thought that I would see a lot more violaters when I started riding a motorcycle, but was pleasantly surprised. The CHP is pretty good about pulling people out of the HOV lane when they spot someone violating the lane.

Now that I'm driving again, I feel like I'm seeing a lot more carpool violaters than ever before!!!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ Nov 29 2006, 02:48 PM) [snapback]355405[/snapback]</div>

Excellent point... one I had not fully considered... very nice. Still, your post raises more questions than answers. Where DO we draw the line? What IS the best carpool policy? Now we are getting to some interesting stuff here!

I wonder if there is any research available on WHO exactly is using the carpool lanes? ... Perhaps Caltrans monitors this kind of data .... I know Caltrans presented this report recently to argue AGAINST allowing hybrids in the carpool lane:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/09/09/HYBRIDS.TMP

The report, I noticed, does not say much about WHO the carpoolers are, just HOW MANY of them are on the road. Soooo, what I want to know is this:

On average, what percentage of carpool lane users are hybrids v. soccer moms v. violators v. actual carpools? My guess (based purely on personal observation of 101 at rush hour over the last several years) would be:

20% violators
20% hybrids
15% soccer moms with their own kids
5% soccer moms carpooling with their own and other people's kids
40% "legit" carpools

If my assumptions are close to being right (who knows?), by eliminating "parental carpools" there will be 20% more room for hybrids. We could then increase the number of hybrid stickers to over 100,000. This would be more consistent with the goals of the carpool policy and would reward people for making good choices that lead to cleaner air quality!

BTW, I'm glad no one has listened to that Caltrans report...

 

I have been using the carpool lane since this program began. I do not get in it all of the time, just when it is moving faster than the other lanes and of course, during the correct hours of operation. I too get upset when I see people driving all by themselves in the carpool lane without giving it a thought. I see people cut in and out of the carpool lane all of the time. In my experience, driving from the San Ramon Valley to Redwood City I see people on the San Mateo Bridge approach all of the time in the carpool lane illegally.

Better yet, when I go from Richmond to Redwood City on 80, which really gets heavy, I would guess that the violation rate is much higher than 20%. It seems like every other car is some thug all by himself in violation of the law.

The bottom line is we need to double the number of CHP on the road and they should have about 20% of their fleet be unmarked cars of various types like you see in other states. As it is now in CA the violators can see the CHP approaching and change lanes quickly and usually avoid detection.

 

Still waiting for my stickers, and I've been accused of being too much of a boy scout, so even though my '07 Prius is obviously a hybrid, I don't chance the HOV lanes yet.

I commute from SF to San Ramon (Waving at you Cairo from the opposite direction!) and see violators all the time on 680 N between Dublin and San Ramon. Probably a good 40-50% in the mornings. I can't imagine how bad it is in the afternoon when the northbound lanes really back up.

Then again off of the Bay Bridge, lots of people jumping into the HOV lanes either to bypass the maze (and they try to sneak over to the right at the last minute) or right after the toll plaza and jumping across the pylons that have been conveniently run down by other crazy drivers. Sigh.

As soon as I get the stickers though I will be happier -- especially on game days (mostly Giants traffic).

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hpajlp @ Nov 29 2006, 03:50 PM) [snapback]355438[/snapback]</div>

Good! That was my goal. No easy answers. For my money, I don't think that ANY single-occupant vehicle should be in the HOV lane. Instead of trying to sell a product that can barely keep up with demand even without this incentive, I think we should be concentrating more on REAL carpools. Of course if I had my way, we'd have far better mass transportation with electric station cars, but hey, nobody asked me.

All I have is questions... no real answers. This whole thing does smack of "special interests" though, doesn't it? One idea I had was to create some great incentive for the cars we *should* have on the road, but that don't yet exist. In other words, create that elusive demand for extremely clean cars - the cars for which the big car makers have historically said (though that is changing currently) there is no demand. Something like HOV access and free bridge tolls (at any time of day) for a plug-in vehicle that has 40 miles of battery range, and then freeway mileage of at least 80mpg in the EPA testing. If we can congest the HOV lanes with that kind of car, than we're at least doing some real good! Offering incentives for cars that are already selling astonishingly well, and require nothing out of the ordinary for the driver (like plugging in) seems pretty silly! But again... in all this, you have to consider that I'm crazy. Crazy enough to have HOV stickers on both my Prius and my EV, yet I only use the HOV lane when I'm a real car pool. Imagine that. I think they should pay ME to cross the bridge this way! (One evening I had an argument with the GG bridge toll-taker when she couldn't see the third passenger who was asleep and behind the tinted glass in the rear. Finally I realized how silly this all was, and said look, this is an electric vehicle with HOV stickers! Whew.)

 

Most of the time they save me 0 time because I go to/from work so late that the carpool lanes aren't restricted, so they're moot. For the times I have gone to/from work or elsewhere during rush hour, it's helped immensely! I usually pass at least 2-4 pockets of horrible stop/go traffic in the regular lanes. I'd wager that passing those pockets saved me 10-30 mins resulting in a trip of ~35 mins.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Curtis SAC @ Aug 31 2006, 04:00 PM) [snapback]312446[/snapback]</div>

No, there's no such thing as a 4 seater 350Z. There are NO back seats. There's just the coupe/hatchback and convertible and both are two seaters.

You're probably confusing the Infiniti G35 coupe (seats 4, looks somewhat similar from the side) or a 2+2 Nissan 300ZX (300ZXs were discontinued in the 96 model year) for a "4 seater" 350Z.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ Nov 29 2006, 08:35 PM) [snapback]355557[/snapback]</div>

I think you are about 5-10 years ahead of yourself on this one. Right now, we absolutely need as many incentives as possible to get people interested in hybrids. The demand is nowhere near as strong as you make it out to be. Step outside the world of the Prius Chat message boards and you will see there is still major work to be done to win the average consumer's heart, mind and wallet over to buying hybrid cars... especially a "funny-looking little puddlejumper*".

Consider, too, just because there is a waiting list to buy a Prius does not mean the demand is overwhelming. It only means the demand is higher than Toyota's current production levels. Toyota can & will increase production (gradually) but they are playing the game conservatively. Apparently, sales are already slowing a bit now that the hybrid tax credit has been cut in half:

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/1153AP_Toyota_Hybrids.html

For me, the carpool lane sticker and the tax credit were what gave me the final push to buy my Prius this year. I still feel lucky that I barely got in under the wire to take full advantage of both. I probably would have waited longer (for the technology to get even better) otherwise.

* what my grandmother would say about my Prius.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Curtis SAC @ Nov 30 2006, 06:07 AM) [snapback]355642[/snapback]</div>

Enthusiast is merely the trim level of my car (along the lines of GXE, SE, GLE, etc.). The trims at the time when I got my 04 Z were Base, Enthusiast, Performance, Touring and Track. I went ahead and updated my sig.

Here's a picture of a G35 coupe (seats 4) from the side http://www.nissannews.com/multimedia/infin...g35coupe_07.jpg. Here's a 350Z http://www.nissannews.com/multimedia/nissa.../06_350Z_05.jpg.

You can see a lot more of each at http://www.nissannews.com/multimedia/nissan2006/350z.shtml and http://www.nissannews.com/multimedia/infin...g35_coupe.shtml.

The G35 and 350Z along w/a few other vehicles are based on the FM platform. The G35 coupe is basically a longer, heavier version that seats 4 and used to have a little less power. The interiors are vastly different though and there's some goofiness w/what's available in each (no sunroofs available on the Z [at least not in 03 and 04), have to get a G35C).