Event Data Recorder in Prius 2006 ?

Yes, big brother is watching. I didn't know they were in all new cars but certainly in most if not all.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(smcracraft @ Nov 26 2006, 12:43 PM) [snapback]354245[/snapback]</div>

In California a search warrant or a court order is required before law enforcement agents can inspect the EDR in your car. However, reasonable suspicion that one broke the law when an accident took place is all that it takes for such a warrant or order to be issued.

 

I have seen some argue on PC that one should violate the law and drive faster than the speed limit if that is what the flow of traffic is doing. Should one become involved in an collision while driving in that situation and the EDR exposes the violation, would not one be more liable for the collision? For the sake of discussion, let us assume that the "other" car was not exceeding the speed limit at the moment of collision.

What is a person to do when they know that they carry a tattle tale?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Allannde @ Nov 26 2006, 05:03 PM) [snapback]354258[/snapback]</div>

In North Carolina, not necessarily "more liable". However, it is a very good practice to (a) drive defensively, and (B) obey traffic laws. That being said, I drive in excess of the speed limit almost every time I get in the car. Sometimes its 40 in a 35 zone, sometime on the freeway its 78 in a 65. Regardless, speeding does not constitute negligence per se in this state. It may, however, in some others. I think it certainly raises a rebuttable presumption that had one been traveling the speed limit, the accident may have been avoided.

Does our Prius record our speed traveled on each trip? I didn't know it was that detailed a data recorder.

Regardless, I hope all PriusChat members and guests had a safe and happy Thanksgiving Holiday!! B)

 

Now, does anyone have an idea on what the interface and protocol are
for *talking* to the thing? It's most likely a component of the
airbag ECU, and it's probably not accessible via CAN but rather some
custom connector, but what do I know.
.
_H*

 

it's activated by airbag deployment, DH doesn't know that anyone other than toyota can access the info. he imagines it'd be through the DLC3 connector.

it's mainly to cover the asses of the carmakers, but apparently others are finding ways to use the data as well.

 

Does anyone know what info is recorded in the EDR? Is it an ongoing recording that throws away the old data like a Flight Data Recorder?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Allannde @ Nov 26 2006, 04:03 PM) [snapback]354258[/snapback]</div>

I too speed quite frequently... however in 31 years of driving, I have never had an accident.. what gives?

Does that mean the law is for some and not for others.. well maybe.. but not in court!

Some are just more attentive, better drivers, and more responsible than others.. but laws have to be made to cover the idiots as well as good drivers in order to work.

The more idiots you have in city driving, the more rules you have to have to protect all.
You notice the farthur out in the country or woods you get, the less and less signs?.. you don't need them!

I see a stop sign as a total waste or a stop "light" for that matter when all views are open and your the "only" car around.. but you still have to stop right?

Anyway.. my attitude is if I break the law, its my butt if I have an accident and I'm liable for any damages because of breaking the law.

I don't mine fessing up to being guilty if I really deserve it.

But I don't want them being nosey and knowing what I do and trying to persecute me for crimes that have caused no harm to myself or anyone else.. but if I did cause harm....... then I'm guilty.

Remember, WE made the laws for us.. the laws didn't make us!
Guilt is usually not imputed unless some damage has occured.

My only beef is I think they should also make a rule that says if they use that info against you, the other driver needs to also have one to be equal.

I don't want my little tattle tale going up against someone else's lie in court.

Unfortunately, I doubt the courts would care....In court, its all about who wins..not whats right and wrong.

If the prosecuting attorney finds out incriminating evidence against you on your box and his client doesn't have a box.. all the more good for his case... but its still unfair.

Thats like allowing DNA evidence to be gathered against one suspect, but not the other... heys.. it happens all the time right?

If we are going to have to have a polygraph, then every suspect involved should also have to have one too in order to use that info.

but whats "right" and whats "legal" are often and even "most of the time", two different things in court!


So after saying all that, and although I"m not afraid of the truth, I would still wish I could disable my box for fear the info would be used unfairly against me when some guy in a junker car hits me and he doesn't have a box.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Nov 26 2006, 10:49 PM) [snapback]354310[/snapback]</div>

This gave me a chuckle. How is it "unfair" to use your box against you. It shows what it shows. If you were speeding, full on throttle, full on brakes, wahtever.....that is what you did.

How would what YOUR doing be negated or changed by what the other car was doing.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised, when one gets an atty, they don't want to ensure a proper trial, they want to be found NOT GUILTY (even if they really are guilty)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mtsarpilot @ Nov 26 2006, 08:42 PM) [snapback]354307[/snapback]</div>

going on what he knows of it, which isn't a lot, he thinks it's a snapshot system triggered by airbag activation.

maybe it does a complete system snapshot. there's a lot of available data that can be accessed. this isn't so much part of the safety system, it's part of the nice person-covering system. so it may very well record everything.

the techs don't have much about it, they've been told it's there but not what computer houses it or anything. might be a function of the center airbag ecu assy. would not be surprising at all. if airbags deploy, that ecu is replaced. there are also lots of wires that plug into that ecu, far more than the number of airbags and the collision sensor...

it's pretty much all speculation, since no one has much info on the system.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rangerdavid @ Nov 26 2006, 06:47 PM) [snapback]354276[/snapback]</div>

I've read that that air bags and/or ABS compare current data to the recent past and that, for this reason, a "window" of data is stored. If you were just going 80mph, and suddenly, in a second or two, you're hard on the brakes and decelerating, ABS and air bags need to know this so they can be on alert. The ECU is constantly thundering away at a mountain of data, and (I assume) in order to "compare," it has to "remember" what the circumstances were that preceded the present circumstances. I've heard it's only a few seconds, but this was on an older car and for all I know, the amount of memory may have increased, lengthening the time window of stored info. I don't know.

I couldn't get find the "linked" video from the message above, might search CNN later.

In the story I read (years ago), a guy in a car with ABS hit and killed a young lady as she backed out of her driveway. The only witness (or "witnesses" if he had a passenger) was the driver of the car that rammed the girl's car. So, police asked him his speed, and he said, "35." ...which was, of course, the speed limit. So, the accident was written up that way, with the girl having made an error by pulling out in the path of an oncoming car.

But the dead girl's parents didn't like the looks of the whole thing and hired a private detective to look into the accident. He learned all he could about the situtation and cars involved, whereupon he (one assumes) established some soft of chain-of-custody situation where he bought the ramming driver's ECU from the local scrapyard, had the data interpreted, and had Mr. 35mph arrested for ??? (vehicular homicide? wreckless homicide? don't remember). In court, all the data stuck.

As for me, should I ever kill (or even hurt) someone by driving like that, I expect to go to prison, so I don't morn any loss of "my right to privacy." And like my PIN#, the ECU data is normally private. Lots of normally-private things become public when you kill someone, so your car's black box should not expect to be discluded from a crime investigation since the vehicle containing said ECU has been used to kill someone. There will, of course, be "gray area" cases where one might wish Pandora's digital box had not been opened. But since the bull is already out of the barn... so be it.

Word on the street (in car dealer's service departments) is that there is a smorgasbord of info in an ECU; likely MUCH more than factory techs will talk freely about. A big Toy SUV was just totaled here this year. The vehicle was trashed but protected the occupants. Toyota sent a couple of guys out with scanner and they sucked the data from the ECU, examined the vehicle from all angles, took pictures, and blew straight out of town... "Whoosh!"

BTW: This same question was asked on the Yahoo Prius list. I responded as above and it was blocked by the moderator as being "off topic" since neither of the cars in the accident was a Toyota Prius. Quite obviously, the post was "on-topic," and the real problem was that I just happened to be on the wrong Prius list. I fixed that problem... or at least I hope I did.

GeronimoPFudgemuffin

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Schmika @ Nov 26 2006, 07:59 PM) [snapback]354313[/snapback]</div>

Well Schmika, try to remember your a police officer..... the law has been so deeply engrained into your programming.. your sense of whats right and wrong revolves around it right?

Let's turn the table so you can relate better...
what if you were driving along one day and without noticing you drifted 3 miles over the limit and at the same time a dog ran out in front of you, you swerved and hit an oncoming car that was going 30mph over the speed limit?

The extra speed of the oncoming driver killed him, but if he would have been going the speed limit, his airbag would have most likely saved him.

Now, you go to court and either there is a passenger that was in the other car that totally denies they were speeding.. or lets make it worse... there we no witnesses at all.
However your little box shows you were speeding "3 miles over" and so they have unrefutable evidence you were breaking the law, but no evidence that will stand pertaining to the other party.

So you get charged for manslaughter, reckless driving and going over the speed limit.... based on how much money you have it is determined by a court of law that you will spend one year in prison away from your family subject to all sorts of horrors.

whether you want to admit it or not.. surely if you are truthful, you will admit its the person with the most money that wins in court.

At any rate...
You were guilty "legally" and the other guy was not "legally" but morally, you were innocent and the other guy was guilty?

Does the law always rule, does it truely govern our lives?.. are we just robots following protocol... is not there a higher law of right and wrong?

Please don't do the cop thing and think anybody who is not a cop is a jerk and a criminal.... almost every police officier I have known personally "about 3" and those I have worked with in the field "about hundreds" were much more corrupt than the standard citizen and used the law to hide behind like a religious shroud that made him feel better than others and all the whiles he was more corrupt but knew how not to get caught,and bend the law..... nor would his peers arrest him.

Don't get too self righteous here on me... where you excel in the law, I"m sure you fail miserably in other areas of life that may be much more important... how do I know?... your a human being.......
Your also a Police officer.... you have to resist the tempatation to feel better than everyone else because you represent the law. There are other laws higher than whats written on paper.

Can't we tell whats right and wrong without having to have someone else wright it down for us first?

Moral of the story is...you had a box and got screwed... because they could.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Schmika @ Nov 26 2006, 05:59 PM) [snapback]354313[/snapback]</div>

Or to make sure that they are not being framed and railroaded by crooked cops and prosecutors. It's been known to happen, as I am sure you know.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(galaxee @ Nov 26 2006, 06:02 PM) [snapback]354316[/snapback]</div>

If that's the case, given the fact that we've read of several accidents where the airbag didn't deploy it may not be much help in court.

 

I just want to state a disclaimer to Schmika... I have conversed with you quite a while now both PM's and on the forum.. I am in no way implying or attacking you...... only the credibility of your profession... those who "serve the people" and stand as a symbol of law and justice "including lawyers and judges, sadly are aften the most corrupt, because they know the law and know better but hide and do it anyway.

I have always had the impression you have always been a fine officier and most likely an ensample to your profession.

But those of us who are "not" in the law field, get the full brunt of abuse and unfaithfulness that profession offers.

When your an officer, all you have to do is flash your badge, or they find out somehow and you nearly have total immunity.. especially on the road.

My Dad was in a branch of the CIC "an offshoot of the CIA and was also a deputy sherrif... I saw how it works.
I also witnessed both on the streets of Houston Texas as well as Portland Oregon what the benifits of being an officier affords you towards immunity against breaking the law.

I said in my original post.. if I cause harm due to my breaking the law.. I was guilty.. I admitted my guilt.. I just don't want that pitted against someone who is "guiltyer" but my little black box gets me unfairly.

If I"m robbing a bank or such.. then so be it.. but I have found in law, the more you say, tell or offer as truth is only used against you "as the law states, beware".

The truthful person who admits guilt is hung high and the one who is guilty but pleads "not guilty" is afforded the most graces and mercies and benifits of a doubt.

The office seat of judgement is supposed to also execute mercy.. a word foriegn in the justice system.....

You know the law system is crooked.. totally crooked, but honest men try to make a difference as your self.....and many others.. but they are far outnumbered.

I don't want to turn this into a pecking party that attacks you personally, your office represents an honorable place in society that deserves merit, but many have stained that office with thier descrepancies... thats not your fault.

No hard feelings Schmika.... I repect you and your office, just not the mentality that goes with it in many cases where many who carry that noble badge actually "lord over" rather than "serve" the public.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(aaf709 @ Nov 26 2006, 07:33 PM) [snapback]354345[/snapback]</div>

I note your "If" in italics because of the wording in galaxee's reply which you referenced. Still, I note the following. This device must have been recording for some period BEFORE the airbags deployed or there wouldn't be much information on it. It might not be wise to assume that the airbags must deploy for the tattle tale to work.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Allannde @ Nov 26 2006, 10:44 PM) [snapback]354360[/snapback]</div>

I believe the device records a rolling 10 seconds of data. The airbag deployment just tells it to stop recording new data and hold on to what it's got.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(kDB @ Nov 27 2006, 06:14 AM) [snapback]354388[/snapback]</div>

I've read articles on this for quite a while now and they've always said that it records constantly but in the event of an accident it will keep the last five minutes. It keeps the last five minutes continuously until an accident is perceived (air bag deployment for example). The black boxes are in most vehicles made by GM, Ford, Chrysler and Toyota at the very least. They're pretty secretive about which ones don't have the recorder though. However, one time several years ago I was driving my American car and was hit from the side by an old guy who was leaving his assisted living apartment building. I was wearing my seat belt, I was going just under the speed limit and was basically doing everything that a responsible driver is supposed to do. The damage to my car (I really don't care about his car and neither of us was hurt) was something like $5,000 (side collisions always cost a lot from what I hear). Since I was hit from the side, it's difficult to imagine how it could be even 1% my fault and, in fact, I wasn't even penalized one iota by the insurance company, let alone the cops. However, I have little doubt that the insurance company got the black box data to verify it. After all, my car was the one that was put on the flat bed tow truck and taken to a fenced in storage yard. The old guy's car was attached to the flat bed's tow bar and pulled along at the same time. The black box doesn't bother me because I can always afford to pay attention and because I always do my best to be a good driver. A jerk driver that is always guilty of doing something wrong would have reason to worry.