2023 Prime ?

Ram and Jeep don't even call their hybrids hybrids.

 

Toyota is already doing that with Prius, Sienna, Sequoia and Venza. In Europe almost all Toyota cars are hybrid only in certain areas of Europe. And the 2023 Prius will, of course, be first hybrid only.

Toyota needs to make the Prius Prime and Rav4 Prime want people to drive it in electric mode but a significant majority never do. I've read many articles and watched many reviews about not only the Prius Prime but in particular the Rav4 Prime (and actually any PHEV), and the sentiment is because they are not 100% electric it doesn't really make EV driving that compelling so why bother. Their 1st issue is none of them support DCFC so then it comes down to pure convenience because regular L1 and L2 takes way too long for the 18.1 kWh battery to charge for all but the most dedicated or those of us with a nice home setup. Going to the gas station is much easier especially for those that live in apartments and most of us have been doing that for most of our driving lives. We don't hear from people that purchased their PHEV for strictly the tax and driving incentives and never plug it in on this forum. With a few exceptions, we only hear from people that do plug them in. PHEVs in Europe are mostly company cars that are purchased for their tax incentives and handed out to their employees along with a gas card.

PHEVs 2nd issue is they continue to use the engine as their dominant power. Electric only mode in all of Toyota and Lexus PHEVs is much slower and less responsive than their default hybrid mode. Maybe the Prius Prime needs a smaller engine like the 1.5L 3 cylinder found in the Yaris Cross that gets good gas mileage in hybrid mode but would be better with a full battery and/or become more powerful in EV only mode. Maybe a good way to do this is to add AWD that only comes on when EV is used or derates it severely when the hybrid mode is on.

Of course if Toyota wanted to sell PHEVs as a cross over solution to the climate problem and lack of EV infrastructure and not waste the batteries on people who won't use them is to cut the price and continue to make them in Japan. Yep that means no tax credit, just like a hybrid.

FYI: Don't know if anybody knows this or not, but the 1.5L in the Yaris Cross is really a derivative of Toyota's most efficient engine, the 2.0L with a cylinder removed.

 

Huh? Full electric mode drives WAY BETTER in my 2021 PP than the default hybrid mode (faster, more responsive). It's one of the reasons I try to drive mostly electric.

 

I am with Duke. I always try to drive in EV mode with my Prime. The range is just enough for a round trip in the city to work and running any errands in the evening. Only time the IC has run is the couple of times it has been on the highway.
It is fun and very responsive in EV mode.


iPhone ?

 

The zero to sixty times is slower in electric, which is what reviewers focus on. That is pretty much how it is with PHEVs. Even a smaller, less powerful engine will add more power to the drive train. Unless the battery is big enough to supply the motor 100% of its power needs. Then you are talking about a REx, not a typical PHEV.

 

In an urban environment, the EV mode wins hands down.


iPhone ?

 

It must be that EV acceleration trails off over 40mph or the throttle is mapped faster because, around town, EV mode seems much more fun to drive than Hybrid mode.

I do tend to drive in hybrid mode on the highway because it burns down the battery so fast and, unlike EV vs Hybrid around town, I don't feel much difference in how it drives.

 

Creative 311 site has a couple articles for more rumors on the 2023 Prius and Prius Prime.

https://creative311.com/?p=146319
https://creative311.com/?p=140714

So for starters, the Prius will continue with the 1.8L, but have indicated it will be improved powering the 5th generation THS. Apparently the Prius Prime, or in their vernacular Prius PHV, will have the 2.0L found in the Corolla Cross Hybrid. So extra HP for carrying around a larger battery pack? For others who haven't visited the Other Cars section of PriusChat (Toyota Hybrids and EVs | PriusChat), you'll find the Corolla Cross Hybrid has an impressive 194 hp but a manufacturer estimated 37 mpg. Maybe that's what they are doing to make driving the Prime in EV mode more desirable. Make it more exciting but more expensive to drive in Hybrid mode. The Prius will have an AWD option like they do now and the Prius Prime (has a development code 990B) will stay FWD. The Prius Prime will "be finished in a different design." according to their web site. Both the Prius and Prius Prime are said to resemble the Crown in design.

 

before you 'make it more exciting', you have to want to sell them.

we used to get a lot of cali posters who only bought one for the HOV, and never plugged in

 

ha ha me too, as I only filled up 10 times in the 4 years I owned my Prius Prime. I'm not exactly a 0 to 60 or 80 mph kinda guy so I preferred the lower speed responsiveness of the EV mode.

 

Wasn't it Toyota who said they didn't want to waste batteries as the reason for not selling more EVs? Seems to me they wasted a few hundred EVs on PHEVs that were sold and never charged.

 

Only for carb credits, not a waste at all.

they made a fortune on land yachts

 

Or they might not be in great shape from being below the optimum charge level for long life all the time.

edit; left an important not off there.

 

Well let's recap the 2023 Prius rumors. Looks to be the "smallest" car Toyota sells as it shrinks below the Corolla Hybrid size. So it slots under the Corolla?
The 2023 Prius is almost identical in size with the Corolla;

• Length: 2.3 inches (58 mm) shorter than the Corolla
• Width: same
• Height: the Corolla is an inch (~25 mm) higher
• Wheelbase: the Corolla has a 2 inch (51 mm) shorter wheel base than the 2023 Prius.
• Design: Goes from a hatchback to a 4-door coupe and looks like the Crown (well a baby Crown) - interesting is the Japanese sites referred to the current (4th) generation Prius as the Kabuki face Prius.
• Engine: The new 1.8L hybrid system from the Europeans says it puts out 138 hp as opposed to the current Prius at 121 HP.
• Fuel Economy: According to bestcarweb.jp the 2023 Prius will get astounding gas mileage: translation (The WLTC mode fuel consumption is expected to exceed 40km/L.). That's about 94 mpg or 2.5L/100km. Seen that figure before and in EPA speak, ~70 - 75 mpg? Doesn't say whether that figure is AWD or FWD. With the shorter, lower size it looks doable and may be going for a bragging right - best mpg.
• Battery: as best as I can figure a newer lighter lithium ion for the FWD and bipolar NiMH for the AWD but no hard evidence

Now recap the 2023 Prius Prime rumors. Most of the "scoop" sites says it too resembles the Crown but no hard data on actual size. And most sites also say it'll be different in design. Most of the sites start to say something about the Prime but then go back to talking about the Prius.

• Engine: Only hard data I have is it'll have the 2.0L Hybrid setup and is designed to be the performance Prius, with 194 HP, like the rest of the Prime, 450h+ lineup. Unlike the rest of the Prime, 450h+ lineup it, probably, won't be AWD. The 2.0L hybrid drive on the European site says it can do 0 - 100 km/h (0 - 62 mph) in 7.5 seconds. Wahoo
• Fuel Economy: but at what cost since the hybrid fuel economy for the 2.0L performance is 37 mpg (6.4 L/100km) for the Toyota Corolla Cross Hybrid which is AWD.
• Battery: No hints of battery size except for hints they will be using a newer design of what is being used for all PHEVs which are 51Ah cells. And everybody knows Toyota likes consistency (economy of scale). The new 2023 Harrier PHEV will be using these cells and specs are remarkably similar to the Rav4 Prime but looks like the Venza.

 

If true, it seems they ignored my post-sale survey answers where I said "ease of entry/exit" and "hatchback" were my prime (pun intended) reasons for buying. Oh well... given lack of easy to enter/exit hatchbacks out there (for me, at 6'4" with shorter legs, just one exists - the Prius), I suppose I'm an outlier. No, SUVs don't count, but that's probably most of my problem.

 

Thanks I never kept up with the Corolla until I started comparing it to the 2023 Prius. I only started recently comparing it to the Corolla because every indication is the 2023 Prius lost its hatchback. Maybe different looks but might be a bit confusing to the consumer. They both look like small 4-door cars (compared to the Camry). More confusing is both are to be offered with AWD starting with the 2023 Corolla Hybrid. The Corolla (with its myriad designs and multiple power plants) is currently Toyota's entry point but the smaller 2023 Prius is now the entry point? The gas-only Corollas are dropping the 1.8L for a 2.0L making a price increase justifiable. Maybe that's how they make the Prius popular again by keeping it hybrid only and a single power plant, thus cheaper? Not sure what would make the 2023 Prius stand out from the 2023 Corolla Hybrid. It'll be an interesting conversation with the sales people, but I predict many deer-in-the-headlight reactions.

Remember these specs are for the Prius NOT the Prius Prime. Maybe the Prius Prime will retain its hatchback, since the rumor sites said it'll be designed different. We just don't have a lot of info about the exact design of the 2023 Prius Prime.

 

Keep in mind that Toyota calls the current Prius with hatchback a sedan.

 

So the big question is when will they start producing the 2023 prime.....no one at Toyota dealerships has any idea. I sit and hope a 2022 I can live with comes to the dealership holding my deposit. Does anyone know how late they started producing the 2022s? Was it January of 2022 or earlier? I've been told once they stop making the 2022s there can be a month delay before the factories start producing the 2023s......