'Praying to end abortion' return address stickers

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daronspicher @ Nov 17 2006, 10:04 AM) [snapback]350759[/snapback]</div>

I am extraordinarily Pro-Choice, Daron, which I know makes you nuts from the get-go. However, I would like a ban on third trimester abortions EXCEPT in the very rare, very unusual circumstance that the woman would die or be extraordinarily maimed in some way through a regular birth. A fetus who is viable outside of the mother's womb to me is a living thing; that's only my opinion though and I understand that.

By your use of the inflaming descriptions, it appears that you are honing in on one horrific issue and lumping all abortions together. It doesn't work for me. And I know I won't change your mind, but you won't change mine, either. Making these descriptive entries only serves to strengthen my beliefs.

 

Kudo's to you SSimon for acknowledging the barbaric nature of abortion. I wasn't sure the abortion arguement ever did that, I was seriously under the impression that they literally seperate themselves from the tragic nature of the realtime process and go on to make the arguement for killing the baby.

There are a lot of questions packed into that middle piece about how things would be different if we weren't performing all these abortions. You're right, there would be a lot of people needing to give up a life path they were otherwise planning to follow now that this baby is here. When I take that paragraph of all the inconveniences to persons and the society as a whole, I am stopped cold.

That list represents the financial return for having killed x number of babies. That's staggering to me. It puts a price tag on killing the next baby. It makes it come down to $$dollars$$.

I want to get out of the consequences of my sexual activity, the cost... just have to kill one baby.

To that, I say yes, stop abortions, let's start paying all those costs you listed and take responsibility for our actions.

Why is it different if other unplanned things happen in life? If someone's child gets burned in a fire, we don't realize the cost it will take for rehab and the fact that we hadn't planned on having a 7 year old burn victim, so I think we should kill her to save us the cost and inconvenience of the next 20 years.

If you get in a car wreck tonight and get banged up pretty good, but you'll be fine, just missing some things and abilities, should the people in your life determine you are not what they were planning for the next 20 years and have you killed?

I make the same arguement for the baby. Let's start at 8.5 months in the womb, 2 weeks till delivery. This is clearly a baby that can survive outside with the rest of us. For 99% of women, there is no risk of any kind, yet there is also the availablity for the woman to have that baby killed. In that case, you've just run the math on how much $$ and lifestyle change that baby would make for that mom and have killed a viable baby with that price tag on the toe. From there, I start backing up toward conception argueing that this is still a baby today as it was yesterday, we still can't kill him/her.

I tend to not dwell in the gray fray area of the discussion as long as there are such a higher percentage of perfectly healthy women getting the abortion of perfectly healthy babies for financial and convenience reasons. If you can get us down to just abortions where it truely is the life/death of the woman, I'll jump in that harder discussion with you and the pro-choice crowd about that. It's just way too wide open right now.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ Nov 17 2006, 10:59 AM) [snapback]350954[/snapback]</div>

To me this is one of the interesting dichotomies in human existence. We strive for an understanding of our universe, and we're curious about it, but chaos appears to rule around us. But is it really chaos? Or, have we just not come to the point in our knowledge where we can yet understand and predict that chaos around us? Hundreds of years ago, the stars were a mystery; now we understand them, to some extent, and can even predict their patterns. Before Darwin, people didn't really have a handle on the spectacularly varied plants and animals on the planet; now there is an understanding of how animals and plants evolve, which has even led into a deeper understanding of ourselves. Once, the rumbling ground would have been attributed to an angry god; now we just know we live near the San Andreas Fault

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ Nov 17 2006, 10:59 AM) [snapback]350954[/snapback]</div>

I don't think of our self-awareness as a curse. I marvel at everything around me, including humans and their creations. I'm thankful that I have that awareness that allows me to enjoy how amazing the universe is, and to know that the one thing that you can count on is dynamic change in the cosmos. At the same time, there's almost a melancholia about it because it also makes me aware of how limited our existence is, and how likely it is that Earth and it's creatures are the only ones we're ever going to know. That's why I think it's so important to take care of the only planet we have. The growth of the human population just simply must be put under control ASAP or we'll outstrip the planet's capabilites to support us. I think it's amazing that there are people who insist on bringing still more humans into this world when we already have far more than needed. There's a pragmatic aspect to managing the Earth's resources and we better all come together on this subject or humans will become extinct.

Vince

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(galaxee @ Nov 17 2006, 01:06 PM) [snapback]350965[/snapback]</div>

Call it shock value if you want. It was the formal process that is seemingly well supported in our country.

It is shocking and that is my point. I'm glad it's disturbing to read about it in english rather than to just discuss the topic under the umbrella of politically correct wording (pro life, pro choice, partial birth abortion, extraction).

And I'm not even a radical. I'd probably never accept an invitation to go picket or demonstrate.

 

Your evidence is dated Daron. This letter was written in 2001. In 2003, the Partial Birth Abortion Ban Act was passed, which makes it illegal to perform a partial birth abortion unless the mother's life is at risk, like I said.

Get with the times.

 

Abortion is one of those age-old questions that will never be resolved to everyone's satisfaction. There are definitely grey areas - it's not always wrong, and it's not always right - depending on the situation. Personally, I'm not comfortable with it being used as a form of birth control, but that's just my opinion and I don't expect it to influence anybody one way or the other. There are far more humane methods for birth control, but they aren't available to everyone for various reasons, some of them political and some of them religious.

 

Daron,

I curious about your stance on traditional birth control means and the morning after pill. Can you comment as to whether you find this to be an acceptable practice?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daronspicher @ Nov 17 2006, 02:52 PM) [snapback]351011[/snapback]</div>

no, i mean shock value in that you seem to be generalizing this procedure as what happens at all abortions, not just the partial birth kind. you know that's not true.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ Nov 17 2006, 04:38 PM) [snapback]351123[/snapback]</div>

I kinda know how you feel. My best friend is a neo-con (even though she can't tell me why, exactly) and has become fairly religious of late. It's kinda become the elephant in the room, "that which should not be named," etc.

We don't discuss either politics or religion. She says it's because she doesn't like conflict. Your friend probably knows that you won't call her out on the sticker. My friend knows that I would, so she wouldn't do that...at least, not yet.

I think it's because she's afraid of losing an argument, but I'll accept her saying she doesn't like conflict.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ShellyT @ Nov 17 2006, 10:52 AM) [snapback]350777[/snapback]</div>

I happened to see this thread, and while I usually don't participate in religious or political issues on this forum ( I come here for Prius info), I simply had to put in a post. For the record, I believe in God! And no, I am not a religious fanatic, born again, etc etc. To me it seems like this is a tremendous over reaction to a simple prayer request. To stop killing babies before they are born! I don't even think that it qualifies as a "religious agenda" or argument. Does anyone in their right mind what to see a baby killed? Just ask women who have had abortions...Talk to them, if they will open up, and see how devastating it has been to their lives. Unfortunately most repress the feelings because of the incredible guilt they have to face once it is on a personal level.

Regarding your post , I can assure you that Pro life is not simply marketing for the anti abortion movement, anti-contraception movement and the anti sex ed groups. You are right in one aspect...they are all connected. Just as the pro abortion, pro contraception and pro sex ed movements are connected. The bottom line is this...if a person believes that God exists, AND that person believes that after our death we will go to heaven or hell...and if that person also believes that the Bible reveals the true word of God...then that person is going to have to strive to act in a certain way. You can call this having good values, high morals, whatever. Over the last 40 years has anyone noticed our world's values and morals have gone out the window. I remember in the mid 60's if there was a news report of a rape or a murder you were glued to the tv set looking in horror.. Now, unless you see 50 people killed at the local mall by someone who was jilted by their ex lover, its no news anymore. What I don't get is do we really think that we are free to do anything we want? Is this life a free ride with no consequences? I think most people feel that murder is wrong, not by religious beliefs, simply by reason. Yet killing goes on all the time. Does that make it right? Is the "I wouldn't do it, but it's ok for you to do it attitude" appropriate? I don't think so. You don't have to be a religious fanatic to know right from wrong.

The Bible and many religions note that sex is the privilege of married couples to create unity between them and for the possibility of new life. Just because many people these days believe that to be an old, antiquated concept, it still remains truth if you believe in God and the principles that have been taught down through the centuries. Wow, an old fashion concept... No sex unless married. That is laughable in today's world...However, upon further review...the majority of abortions happen in relationships OUTSIDE of marriage in which a baby is not wanted and will be destroyed at all cost. So you tell me...since contraception makes it easier and less likely to become pregnant, wouldn't it follow that in the case that contraception fails, abortion is the next logically step? That is the problem with decreased morals.. that is not a judgemental statement. It is a factual statement. Please let's not argue that abortion is ok because it allows someone to continue a lifestyle that is contrary to the Word of God.

With so many opinions about abortion...what do most know about it. really? Get online and learn it. The different types and strategies of how it is performed. The methods of which these babies are methodically destroyed, and what in fact, the baby really goes through while being killed. You will understand in the fullest sense of the word that the baby IS A REAL PERSON. Isn't is funny how people are always talking about the rights of the woman.. What about the rights of the women who are aborted? (Since statistically approximately 50% of all aborted babies will be women. ) How would anyone like it if their mother decided to abort them!

You know, I hear and read about a whole bunch of people who don't believe in God and religion. I can understand why...When someone believes in God or follows religious tenets, it requires the constant struggle to act in a certain way. It's called morality. And it is a struggle. It would be foolish to say acting good is easy. Look at all the opportunities we have in this world to do things that would be against what most religions would call wrong. Most of us intuitively understand when we are doing something right or wrong. The bottom line is how much do we want that object or activity. It has nothing to do with being anti abortion or anti whatever. Here is the problem....If someone chooses to live a good moral life , your conscience won't let you do some of the things you like to do. And that sacrifice is not easy or comfortable for most of us.

The truth of the matter is that the reaction to the prayer request is not really about being offended about a simple request to pray for the end of abortion. It's that it struck a cord in everyone that responded. It begs the question that we all have to ask ourselves..Am I leading a life that I should lead? Are my choices good ones. Am I standing up for the principles that I should be standing up for?

I tip my hat to the person who sent the letter with the prayer to stop abortion on it because she has given many people the chance to think about where they stand on this important issue. It certainly gave me pause. I felt compelled to write this. But then again, I would probably get ridiculed by someone who thinks the exact opposite.. The heck with it...I wrote it anyway... I urge people to learn more about all these concepts before being so quick to judge. Go online and read the details of the Roe vs Wade case. You will be utterly surprised at what you find. To the original poster of this thread, I seriously doubt this person was throwing something in your face. Most people I know who are pro life really do care about people, more than you can imagine. They probably have struggled with these same issues and now feel like they are compelled to do something extra to give others another perspective. Perhaps a little soul searching on your own will reveal that your conscience is talking to you and making you feel a bit uncomfortable about the topic. Think about it, yes even pray about it for those who are inspired to do so. You may come to a different conclusion. Enjoy the journey.

 

To begin with, welcome to Fred's House of Pancakes ajs, where only the strong survive.

To have written the tome that you wrote obviously shows that you feel very strongly about the subject of abortion, but allow me to paraphrase what you wrote for those of us too feeble to read the entire thing:

I think that about sums it up.

Nothing like passing a whole lot of religious judgment on others while claiming to do otherwise.

Vince

 

Just out of curiosity, where does having a vasectomy so you don't have any children fall in the grand scheme of immoral acts related to conception?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(VinceDee @ Nov, 06:28 PM) [snapback]351192[/snapback]</div>

Thank you Vince, that's exactly how I read it, but I wasn't going to respond so nicely.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(VinceDee @ Nov 17 2006, 06:28 PM) [snapback]351192[/snapback]</div>

Vince--you're fabulous.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dragonfly @ Nov 16 2006, 03:24 PM) [snapback]350240[/snapback]</div>

I about choked here. This is NOT true.

BTW, on to the OP and others. Why would you even THINK that putting a religious bumper sticker on your car, or a return address label on an envelope is FORCING their opinion on you.

I get LOTS of free address labels from diferent organizations I send mone to. Am I now to worry that when I send letters with the symbol of the Nat'l Law Enforcement museum I might be offending those who commit crimes?

Think real deeply and take some of your comments to their logical conclusion. Benign symbols and signs should ot offend anyone (I say benign, if you compare a Nazi swastika or KKK symbol to a fish or a cross...well...you are off a bit)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MarinJohn @ Nov 16 2006, 03:57 PM) [snapback]350263[/snapback]</div>

WHY!!!! I'll bet she cares for Pinto and her expressions are out of love. WHY O' WHY do you need t OFFEND people who are trying (as best they know how) to connect and reach out. Nothing Pinto has said indicates this person holds ill will toward her. Some of you are just spiteful.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Schmika @ Nov, 08:00 PM) [snapback]351243[/snapback]</div>

Back it up.