GM to unveil electric car prototype

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(pstockley @ Nov 13 2006, 11:19 AM) [snapback]348247[/snapback]</div>

That is precisely what they are planning to do.

Their propaganda is to promote how much gas is being "saved" rather than how much is actually being used. So market perception will be quite a challenge for those genuinely trying to make a difference.

Sadly, those mammoth-sized hybrids will also be depending on cylinder-deactivation... something that only large engines can take advantage of. With a 4-cylinder, sustained cruising using only 2 is still quite unrealistic... which brings us to the very point of this topic, shutting the engine off entirely instead.

Of course, how clean & efficient the use of an engine for a series implementation like this prototype remains a total mystery. Cost effectiveness is unknown too.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eagle33199 @ Nov 13 2006, 11:21 AM) [snapback]348324[/snapback]</div>

Here is my table of equivalencies, copied over. See for yourself where the real savings in gasoline are to be found.

One might argue that it would be better if everyone just drove smaller cars and you would be correct. But so far, the market is not leaning that way and may not for a long time.

Li/100K * MPG * Ga/100 Mi
1.5 * 156.81 * .64
2.0 * 117.61 * .85
2.5 * 94.09 * 1.06
3.0 * 78.41 * 1.28
3.5 * 67.21 * 1.49
4.0 * 58.81 * 1.70
4.5 * 52.27 * 1.91
5.0 * 47.04 * 2.13
5.5 * 42.77 * 2.34
6.0 * 39.20 * 2.55
6.5 * 36.19 * 3.19
7.0 * 33.60 * 2.98
7.5 * 31.36 * 3.19

16.0 * 14.70 * 6.80
16.5 * 14.26 * 7.01
17.0 * 13.84 * 7.23
17.5 * 13.44 * 7.44
18.0 * 13.07 * 7.65
18.5 * 12.71 * 7.87
19.0 * 12.38 * 8.08
19.5 * 12.06 * 8.29
20.0 * 11.76 * 8.50
20.5 * 11.47 * 8.72

Edit: Please note the three columns. They were seperate when I sent them.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eagle33199 @ Nov 13 2006, 01:14 PM) [snapback]348412[/snapback]</div>

Hi eagle33199

I confess I don't understand your point partly because your spreadsheet didn't jump into my awareness. Are we comparing the same things? I am looking at the whole vehicle universe not just one car versus another.

Can you see that there are three columns on my table? Is it clear to you that on each horizontal line the same rate of consumption is expressed in three different measures, first litres per 100 kilometers, then miles per gallon and then gallons per 100 miles. The table requires no interpretation. The calculations are within the table.

Fuel savings applied to "gas hogs" will save much more petrolium than those applied to "gas sippers". Of course it would be better if everyone drove "gas sippers" and we will someday be forced to that. For now, it may be clever marketing as well as good for the environment to reduce the number of really bad "gas hogs".

At least that is the way the numbers look to me.

 

Hi eagle33199

I see your point now. What ever, numbers are numbers and we are using the same ones. I find it interestiing the way people have a different perspective when they see mpg expressed in gallons per 100 miles.

It will be very interesting to see what GM comes up with. It begins to look like there is some real action on the home front. Toyota has done it right with our Prius but it would be a shame if our domestic car industry just layed down and died. There has to be room for both.

 

Personally, I can't help but think that this is the latest in vaporautomobiles that many automakers continuously come out with to make the general public think that they are actually doing something, when they are really just dragging their feet and resisting change. Another fine example, as I see it, is the Ford Reflex.

Toyota is already light-years ahead of these guys in that their cars, particularly the Prius, are well beyond the "concept" stage and in production and on sale to the general public. And, if rumors about the 08 Prius and it getting 94MPG are true, Toyota already has these concept cars beat before the concept cars even get off the drawing board. I'd say that Toyota is infinitely more likely to deliver a 94 MPG Prius than Ford, GM, etc, are likely to get one of these concept cars into the market for the general public.

IMHO, Ford, GM, Chrysler, (insert your favorite automaker here) all ought to put their money where their mouths are and actually sell these vehicles instead of making empty promises in the guise of futuristic concept cars that are all razzle and dazzle with plenty of shine but nothing inside.

Until these vaporautos hit the market and I can buy one, I have absolutely no reason to get excited.

 

My point is why the hell would I pay a potentially high premium for an SUV that gets the same MPG as an efficient medium/smaller car? We don't need complicated expensive technology to fix the SUV problem, just don't buy one !

I want a car that uses significantly less gas than a Prius and doesn't cost a fortune in electricity to operate. A larger SUV would also compromise the potential electric only mileage or you will need really a large potentially very expensive battery.

 

The problem is that I think if they produce a plug-in SUV it may well be a flop. Just look at current hybrid sales, the SUV's barely register in the sales compared to Prius and Civic. Most of the people I know that have any feeling for the environment and potentially would buy a hybrid, don't own SUV's. The people I do know that own an SUV don't give a s**t about fuel economy and definitely wouldn't pay extra for a hybrid. If gas prices really went up, I think most casual SUV drivers would just buy a cheaper more efficient medium/small car instead.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eagle33199 @ Nov 14 2006, 08:21 AM) [snapback]348726[/snapback]</div>

Right On!

My other car is a Volvo Cross Country which is required by our lifestyle. While it technically is a passanger car and has a lifetime average of over 23 mpg it has the interior dimensions of an SUV. I would really like to replace it with a serial hybrid or a BEV. Some people can do just fine with a small car. A larger car which is also economical will have a large market and is a worthy product. There should be economical cars of ALL sizes.

Just as owners of gas hogs should not be the only ones who are satisfied, those who want small cars should not be the only ones who are given what they require. We shall see what (if anything) GM produces.

One can purchase only what is for sale.

 

Notice I said 'If gas prices really went up' they would get a car. I talked to the SUV owners I know and they said if gas prices got to $4 to $5 a gallon they would ditch the SUV and drive a car or station wagon. Up to this point they don't care about fuel economy. Doesn't make sense to me, but then SUV's don't make sense anyway. A decent station wagon would be just as practical for 90% of SUV owners. Its just an image and perceived safety benefit that keeps them in SUV's.

Even though I think they are stupid, I am not against hybrid SUV's. However, Like you say it will take some convincing to make most SUV owners switch to plug-in hybrids. I think a lot of the early adopters for this technology will come from already environmentally conscious road users perhaps who already have hybrids or smaller cars. I know 5 people who would consider a plug-in car but not SUV. I don't know any SUV owners who would consider a plug-in SUV.

 

I can say with some certainty that 90% of people don't need an SUV. And the reason I can say this is that 10 to 15 years ago they didn't exist in any numbers and people managed just fine. I also orginally come from Europe and people in general do just fine there without them. I agree that a lot of people want SUV's but that is purely emotional and they don't really need them. I am not under the impression they will change their minds anytime soon.

Why are Prius and Civic hybrids selling then? Why would selling a hybrid SUV be any better given the barriers to adoption you mentioned? Realize for the short/medium term you will pay a serious premium for a plug-n hybrid and I doubt you will save a significant amount of money on gas. So in effect you will buy one for either environmental or oil dependence reasons. Again I think the Prius type of market place reflects the demographic of people who would be willing to pay a premium (and take a risk on new unproven technology) for these reasons.

 

I will buy any plug-in that comes to market, including from GM.

Nate

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(naterprius @ Nov 14 2006, 07:17 PM) [snapback]349173[/snapback]</div>

I'll second that. And it would be poetic justice if GM became there leader, atoning for past sins.

I guess I have a few more caveats. If someone would offer something along the lines of "all or most of the miles are plug-in", "seats more adults than a Prius", and "not a great big hunking SUV", I'd buy. A new car like one of the RAV4 EVs you just saved would be fine. I might even give up the "seats more adults" clause.

By contrast to the discussion of a plugin SUV, I believe that a small plugin minivan would be ideal and could be sold profitably here. My wife and I really like the specs on the Toyota Estima hybrid (available in Japan, not here). I calculate that an Estima with a 30 mile PHEV pack would to be (for our driving patterns) more carbon-sparing than an unmodified (no PHEV) Prius.

 

GM offering a plug-in hybrid mid-size car or maybe small crossover certainly would differentiate themselves from current hybrid offerings. Anyway lets see what that they come up with. It's all vaporware at the moment.

On a different note, I think in the coming decades we are all going to have to recalibrate what we think is essential. I see no proof at the moment we are making any significant reductions to our oil usage. When the supply/demand gap gets large enough due to declining supply of oil who knows what will happen.