Thank you Americans

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(AlbertoC67 @ Nov 13 2006, 04:09 AM) [snapback]348113[/snapback]</div>

Alberto: Thank you for another thoughtful and perceptive post. It seems that nobody but Daron (an extreme conservative) and Dr. Berman (a deeply-disturbed individual with a reputation for inventing "facts" to support his arguments) have actually responded to your comments.

Just let me say that I appreciate hearing the views of someone outside of North America. When I speak with other Americans, I seldom find agreement, but I agree emphatically with everything in your post. Thank you again.

And I'll add that I, too, like you, find it hard to see much difference between the Democrats and the Republicans though many of my friends, and most of my enemies, insist the difference is day and night.

 

Question for Alberto:

As you can see, there are many people here who think that what Bush has done to the U.S. is terrible, and many people who think he is a great man. We debate endlessly about it, and despite what may look like "red" and "blue" regions in the country, there is actually quite a lot of mixture.

So my question to you is, is it like this in Italy too? Are there some people who think that Bush is doing a really good thing, and others who don't? Do you debate it with your friends?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(InfideNino @ Nov 13 2006, 05:13 PM) [snapback]348447[/snapback]</div>

Defending yourself as we are doing is not a form of terrorism, but an act of survival - in the same way we should prevent Iran from going nuclear. Not to protect its citizens is a failure of primary order for any society.

Terrorism can be governmental - witness the Palestinian Authority, Afghanistan, etc.

The UN for most part is a joke - what have they done for good in thier long storied history?

Hope you had a nice sleep.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Nov 14 2006, 01:28 PM) [snapback]348636[/snapback]</div>

I never said USA was committing terrorism. I agree a country should defend its citizens; however I don't think the US is taking the right approach in this matter. For one thing, I would think defending your citizens from poverty and ignorance should be a higher priority.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Nov 14 2006, 01:28 PM) [snapback]348636[/snapback]</div>

Yes, as I said I realized that.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Nov 14 2006, 01:28 PM) [snapback]348636[/snapback]</div>

You still haven't told me if you think treaties should be respected or broken.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Nov 14 2006, 01:28 PM) [snapback]348636[/snapback]</div>

I did, thank you. I hope you did too.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(InfideNino @ Nov 14 2006, 08:00 AM) [snapback]348644[/snapback]</div>

A country and its leads have an OBLIGATION to protect its citizens. Whether or not you agree means absolutely zero - you are not privvy to the same data the President or other members of Congress are - so we will all have to assume they are acting in our best interests and let history be the ultimate judge. And how do you protect citizens from ignorance? What is ignorance to you may be brillance to another - is ignorance defined by whether or not you agree with their points of view? And the American war on Poverty has been an ongoing battle for decades - trillions of $'s spent and continuing to be spent.

The highest priority for our federal government is defending us -without that your war against ignorance and poverty are shot.

Treaties should be respected of course. The reality is that they are not often (Hitler/Germany, the Palestinians, terrorists and the Geneva Conventions, etc). What treaty did we have with Saddam or Afghanistan --- and if we did for instance, by attacking us (hypothetical here) did not the attacking country violate the treaty first?

And I disagree with the Supremes on their recent ruling on terrorism. I disagree with their recent decision re: Kilo vs. New London -- there are a number of significant missteps by the Supremes. I along with every other American will live with it but, not happily.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Nov 14 2006, 02:56 PM) [snapback]348648[/snapback]</div>

First of all: I do agree that a country has the obligation to protect its citizens. You are not a very good reader, are you? Maybe it's my English, in which case I apologize. It's not my first language as I am sure you realized.
Who are you to decide what it means whether I agree or not? Obviously I am just posting my opinion on a discussion forum; why do you say it means zero?
I realize that I don't have access to the same information as the president of the USA. However, I would think the US citizens would demand access to more information than they are getting, especially after being lied to by their government about rather important issues.
By the way, I also think the international community, e.g. the Dutch government, should have demanded more information for example before supporting the invasion of Iraq. I am not trying to blame everything on the US citizens, especially not on individuals who I realize have very little power. I am surprised and disappointed that the world is not more outraged than it already is.
"Let history be the ultimate judge" is just a very easy excuse for not taking responsibility for your present actions, isn't it? I think it is extremely important that a government explains why they do what they do, even at the expense of some military advantages.
I'm not saying that your government doesn't spend any money on fighting poverty, I just think I would give it a higher priority. But hey, that's just me. This thread was (partly) about how Europeans perceive America and this is the view of one European. If you want to let your fellow Americans starve that's up to you of course. By ignorance I was not only referring to the lack of information from the government but also to the poor educational system for most of the population.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Nov 14 2006, 02:56 PM) [snapback]348648[/snapback]</div>

It's not my war. I am relatively rich and well-educated. Most people on this board probably are. I'm just saying maybe you're giving a little too much priority to defense.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Nov 14 2006, 02:56 PM) [snapback]348648[/snapback]</div>

Luckily most treaties are respected. Hitler, Hamas, Bush, etc. are still exceptions in the world and I am thankful for that. Which treaties did the USA violate? I am not a legal expert but they attacked a country without permission from the UN Security Counsel and almost everybody agrees that the Geneva Conventions where violated in Guantanamo Bay and Abu Ghraib for example. Just by saying you disagree doesn't make it less true.
What do you mean by "by attacking us (hypothetical here)"? Because these countries never attacked you, did they? We are not talking about hypothetical situations but about the real world.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Nov 14 2006, 02:56 PM) [snapback]348648[/snapback]</div>

Again, to disagree doesn't make it less true. I don't usually follow the decisions of the US Supreme Court but if everybody disagrees with them you should replace them. This still doesn't give you the right to torture people though.

I am just giving a European view on the American politics. I'm not saying that other countries don't make mistakes; the Dutch sure have done some horrible stuff in the past. Just like I said before, I hope the whole world learns from their own errors and from those of others, present or past. And I hope that everybody in the world who is lucky enough to live in a democracy takes their responsibility seriously and does the right thing.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(InfideNino @ Nov 14 2006, 10:55 AM) [snapback]348708[/snapback]</div>

I normally frown on ad homium attacks, but in this case, I need to. Welcome to PriusChat; I can see you met Dr. Berman, our resident Right Wing Wacko. It's not you. He selectively reads from your posts what he wants to, and interprets them as he pleases. For example, if you posted "Puppies are cute", he will interpret that as you saying "I think puppies should be set on fire," and attack you for suggesting such a thing, and no matter how you protest your real meaning, you will forever, in his mind, be the guy who sets puppies on fire.

Best solution: Ignore him.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(InfideNino @ Nov 14 2006, 10:55 AM) [snapback]348708[/snapback]</div>

What treaty did Bush break?

Whether or not the European countries supported us or not is neither here nor there. The last time the Europeans acted alone to prevent genocide or mass murder was when? The fact is the state of Europes military establishment is so poor/weak/neglected speaks volumes about their views of both the military and use of strategic power.

World outraged? Where was their outrage as we buried 3,000 dead Americans after 9/11. What did you expect us to do? Give up? Elect a new government that turned tail (like Spain?). Surrender (like France)? Our mistake was not leveling the entire area from Afghanistan to Iraq and while we were at it take out Syria. Where was the worlds or Europes outrage as Saddam killed HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS? I know - same place Europes outrage was when Hitler was doing his little dirty work. Explain the food for oil thing for me if you could - were is the outrage there?

And no NO the government should not give away any military advantages it enjoys - why? To risk more innocent lives? JEEEZZ?

Our poor are doing ok by the being poor standard thanks. And only look down upon our education system if you want to fool yourself. My childrens education - public school - puts to shame probably anything you can offer through your secondary educational system - which also can not come close to the American secondary education system. I do not see many Americans going to Europe to learn whereas our educational system has over 500,000 foreigners currently.

What about your current politcial / social woes. How about that Van Gough murder? How about that politician that had to flee your country for her personal safety? What about the Muslim problem in France etc?

I would worry about the survivability of your own culture and society if I were you. A negative birth rate, a stagnant economy, unemployment rates that are twice ours, cultural wars looming on YOUR horizon -- we are ok here. A single word from a single American - if Europe were to find itself in trouble again -- I will do my best (as I am sure lots of Americans will) to make sure we Americans do NOT come to your aid. You Europeans have created way too many problems for us to keep bailing you out of your own mess.

And, we do not need and will never need the UN's permission to do what we think is best for us to PROTECT us. Seeing how the Europeans have never found it in their best interest to protect themselves - trust me - we do not look to you for guidance when we feel we should take care of ourselves.

And that democracy you are living with now was given to you courtesy of American blood and money and protection and sacrifice - no strings attached WITHOUT UN permission. How many dead Americans are buried on your soil? We know how to define our true friends in this world.

 

InfideNino - thank you for your posts. It certainly is helpful to see the opinions of others from around the world.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Nov 14 2006, 04:28 AM) [snapback]348636[/snapback]</div>

Defending yourself is not, as such, terrorism. But the U.S. government has a history of terrorism, beginning with the first Europeans on these shores, and continuing to the torture of prisoners today. Such tactics are not only morally reprehensible, but they are counter-productive. A dead terrorist will commit no more acts of terrorism, that is true. But the parents of a murdered child become your sworn enemies for life, and bombing a country into the stone age (as the U.S. did in the first Gulf war) is an act of mass murder. Every bomb that lands within earshot of a non-combatant is an act of terrorism. War is terrorism. The United States has incorporated acts of terrorism, as strategic policy, in all its wars, from the slaughter of women and children in the Indian wars, to the A-bombs dropped on civilians, to the napalming of children in Vietnam, to the intentional destruction of civilian infrastructure in the first Gulf war to the presidential authorization of torture today.

Your comment about the U.N. is typical of your narrow view of the world: While the General Assembly has accomplished little, mainly because the "big five" are permitted to veto anything it does, the General Assembly is not the U.N.: It is merely a small part of it. The U.N. is also a myriad of specialized agencies, many of whom accomplish a very great deal with little attention and less credit from the U.S. media.

One good thing the U.N. has done is the complete eradication of smallpox. It has also done wonders for the health of poor countries and the general welfare of children.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Nov 14 2006, 11:38 AM) [snapback]348735[/snapback]</div>

This is quite impressive for someone who once uttered ...<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Sep 20 2006, 10:36 AM) [snapback]322254[/snapback]</div>

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Proco @ Nov 14 2006, 11:51 AM) [snapback]348747[/snapback]</div>

Why would or should we come to Europes aid again - specifically Western Europe? I am in favor of continuing establishing strong relationships with Eastern European countries and the English speaking Western European countries like England, Ireland.

Why would we want to spend a nickle helping France today or Germany. We should pull our all of our military assets from Germany today. We should stop diverting one nickle of US Dept of Defense $'s that finds it way their directly and even indirectly. Let them step up and start spending some of their own $ on their own defense.

Our future does not involve Western Europe for the most part. It involves India, Asia, the Pacific Rim, former Soviet republics.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Stev0 @ Nov 14 2006, 11:16 AM) [snapback]348720[/snapback]</div>

Tell me why you do not follow your own advice? Maybe that should alert you to other faults in your reasoning :lol:

 

I'm playing this little game with myself, where I read the replies first and then try to guess who wrote them...it's remarkable how some people really have a very unique personal style.

---------------

Honestly, I believe that our future involves the entire world, whether a specific country/group of people can do anything for us at a particular moment or not.

I'm not comfortable with 'utility value' as the primary criterion for making decisions like these; I think it places the United States in a reactionary position.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(AlbertoC67 @ Nov 10 2006, 07:08 AM) [snapback]346838[/snapback]</div>

Don't feel bad. We've been making the world laugh for 6 years now and still counting.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Stev0 @ Nov 14 2006, 05:16 PM) [snapback]348720[/snapback]</div>

Thank you for your advice. I've read some of dbermanmd's posts in other threads and I've decided to end this discussion from my part. I enjoy discussing politics with someone who has an different view than me but only if they are intelligent and somewhat open minded. I feel very sad for people like dbermanmd and it frightens me to no end that there are some many of them, not just in the US but in the whole world. I see them around me and I feel so powerless. Other systems may be worse, but democracy sure is scary.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(InfideNino @ Nov 15 2006, 02:16 AM) [snapback]349374[/snapback]</div>

Have you lived your whole life and never had the opportunity to stand up for yourself or for a friend, or for the kid who keeps getting picked on?

dbermanmd has a mindset of operating from a position of strength with a goal of shoring up the security of himself, his family, his town, his country. I tend to pretty much agree with what he posts. I'm glad to see someone else on here that wants to put a boot in the nice person of the next guy who wants to blow something up in America.

The hide in the corner mentality and hope the boogey man goes away is looming large on Prius Chat. I think it's becomming more the norm in America too. (nothing to the level you find here on the board, but more and more). I watched the voters cower into the polls last tuesday and tell us they don't like seeing war news. I say it that way because I don't believe Americans are tiring of war because most of America has given absolutely nothing out of their selfish daily life toward the war. The people are not part of the war on terror, it's just someing our military is doing over there.

Remember WWII when Americans were on rations in order to support the war effort. What has the normal American who voted in last week's election given up for the war? Nothing... They're just tired of seeing it on TV and they've been told that the war is a bad thing so they voted in the weaker party to take us in a weaker direction.

If America as a nation had to make real contributions to keep the homeland running while the boys were off winning the war, the country would be united in purpose to win the war. Since no one here at home has invested an ounce of themselves in the war on terror, there is no heartfelt stake in winning it.

We all just take our welfare handout of freedom everyday and go on bitching about the guys and gals over in the war who are giving us those handouts. Same for all you wimps in other countries who are sitting around the world taking your freedom handout every day.

One day, downtown Boston goes up in a big blast and everyone can join in chorus about how the government didn't do enough to protect us.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daronspicher @ Nov 15 2006, 09:18 AM) [snapback]349424[/snapback]</div>

I did not read these posts what-so-ever... but all i have to contribute is that I DO NOT LIKE GEORGE BUSH!
there have been way to many iffy things going on; From failing to build an international coalition for the war in iraq, not getting osama, oil prices changing so much, his threatning words in campaigns and his strong reading/speaking ability also get me going as well.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daronspicher @ Nov 15 2006, 11:18 AM) [snapback]349424[/snapback]</div>

THUNDEROUS APPLAUSE.....

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daronspicher @ Nov 15 2006, 09:18 AM) [snapback]349424[/snapback]</div>

Yeah, whatever. The party that is currently invading a country that had nothing to do with 9/11 lost big time. The party that let Osama Bin Laden slip through Junior's fingers because he would rather have read "My Pet Goat" instead of the warnings Bill Clinton gave him lost big time. The partry that denies our troops the supplies they need to do their job lost big time. The party that has been slashing veteran's benefits lost big time. The party that has been giving Halliburton non-bid contracts in Iraq (one of the main reasons we're REALLY there, btw) lost big time.

Come back when you're serious about defending the U.S. and not just defending Halliburton stockholders.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Stev0 @ Nov 15 2006, 09:01 AM) [snapback]349447[/snapback]</div>

You must be a real genius stevo... hahaha...