Thank you Americans

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Nov 10 2006, 02:36 PM) [snapback]347073[/snapback]</div>

Additionally, it seems like I recently read where a study of the American invasion of Iraq has resulted in a death toll of nearly one million Iraqi civilians. It took Saddam over ten years to perform his genocide. The United States Iraq invasion has resulted in three times as many Iraqi civilians killed in a third of the time. It's almost as if Saddam wasn't killing enough of the Iraqi population quickly enough so the Americans decided to really show him how to do it.

It's also another example of something that really offends the rest of the world. It's the idea that the only thing that interests Americans about the Iraq invasion is the American military death toll. The Bush adm knows this and has taken great pains to keep those numbers down. They know that they can keep the Iraqi conflict going for as long as they can keep the American military death toll low. The number of severely wounded American military personnel or dead Iraqi civilians due to the American invasion are of little importance to most Americans and this kind of attitude is justifiably abhorrent to much of the rest of the planet.

 

Let's say your father bought a new car, and some kid from the other side of the tracks snuck over and stole it and burned your house down. The years pass, and your father finds the kid and demands his car back and the kid kills him. More years pass and you see that kid driving your father's car. You say, "Hey! That car belonged to my father. Give it back!" And the kid replies, "Hey man. That was the past. Forget the past."

That's what we've done to the Indians. But it's not just the past. We're still living on the land we stole from them, farming it and gutting it for its oil and minerals. We've still got them living on reservations in conditions of poverty as bad as some third-world countries.

It's not the past. It's the present. But you have to understand the past to understand how we got to the present.

Imagine you're living a rustic life, not great, but you're getting by. Then someone comes along and kidnaps you and forces you to work for nothing. If you refuse, or try to run away, or you don't work hard enough to satisfy him, he whips you to within an inch of your life. For years and years you work for nothing. Finally you get set free, and you ask for compensation for all the years you worked, and they say, Sorry, no deal. So you go to work for wages, and they pay you so little you live as poorly as you did before. Well, at least you don't get whipped. But everywhere you go people assume you're stupid and a thief and nobody will give you a chance at a decent job.

The guy that kidnapped you is living in a big house that he bought with the profits of your labor, but you're living in a shack. You manage to put yourself through college, but the only job you can get is as a janitor at minimum wage.

That's what we've done to African Americans. And what we're still doing today. It's today that matters, but you can't understand the present unless you understand the past. The racism is real and ongoing today. It's more sophisticated today: they let a few people of color into the corporations and into government, as long as they toe the line. But the great majority are excluded as effectively as if there was a razor-wire fence around the ghetto.

America is a land of wealth and hope and opportunity if you're white. Today. But it's a land of poverty and desperation if you're a person of color. Today. There's a kind of a lottery that lets a few into the system, provided they're the best and the brightest, and provided they toe the line. That's the sophistication of modern-day racism. But the kids in the ghetto know there's no opportunity for you if your face is black. Today. Now.

Conservatives want us to forget the past, because if we forget the past we will not understand how the present situation arose, and we can more easily blame the poor for their poverty, and we can more easily take the credit for our own success.

America ows a present debt to the people upon whose backs it built its present prosperity, and the war cry of "Forget the past!" is little more than a cowardly way of refusing to pay its debts.

There's a big difference between despising a continent because of the crimes of the previous generation, as Berman despises Europe for the holocaust, and demanding justice for the poor today, based on an understanding of the 500 years of brutal oppression and genocide that reduced them to their present condition, and the racism of the present, that keeps them there, as I and other progressives do.

Be concerned with the present. But understand the past.

 

Condi Rice, Colon Powell, and Bill Cosby say BS... Get off the couch and make yourself better today than you were yesterday and eventually you get out of your situation. How many dollars shall we pay every black individual, and do you want to write the checks from the federal treasury or do you have another source?

We will let the Native American Indians know you are moving out of your house and they can have it. You wouldn't want to continue to benefit from them being pushed off the land.

Do you want to wallow in the mistakes of America or just own up to them, say you're sorry and move on.

I make what I think is a decent salary at my job. My peers are roughly speaking about 18/30 Indian (India), 3/30 asian, 5 or so russians and about 3 white guys and an african american lady. They are all on par with my salary... some higher, some a bit lower and many right on par.

Not a single person in the group I just mentioned got where they are by having anyone give them a handout. None of them had a free pass to college. Most of them worked their way from pretty much nothing to get to where they are right now.

I'm not just calling BS on you either. I heard this same arguement on a radio show a week ago. Anyone not familiar with this arguement, they are saying America or American companies owe the African American community some $$ repay for the days of slavery.

I never hear who has to pay. How much to pay.... or who gets paid... Why? Because all we get from this liberal strand in our society is beaotching about stupid stuff and NEVER a plan, an idea or an answer to the problem they propose matters to us.

We're sorry for slavery, move on. We're sorry about the reservation thing, but we were also tired of being scalped and having arrows through the heart. Now... Stay in school, work hard... stop drinking, stop smoking, stop driving while you do. We will continue your checks, but you can make your life better if you use the money for feeding your family, going to school and keeping a job. We are not giving the land back.

That's my plan... might not make you feel all fuzzy inside, but it works and you're not going to get much better.

What's your plan?

 

We only have control over our own actions. We can treat people a certain way based on their race or appearance or whatever, or we can treat them with respect. It's each person's individual choice, and ours alone. And all we have is the present. Yes, there have been great injustices in our own history. But I believe that if we provide opportunity to those who are willing to work hard, we can all live the American dream. We do need to provide the opportunity. Right now, people are struggling on minimum wage and no health care, and no doubt working much harder than I do. It's the main reason I'm a Democrat. I believe an affluent society has a responsibility to all its citizens, that has lately been ignored. I'm hopeful that is about to change.

 

I'm for affirmative action, as long as there is some sort of agreed upon way to determine when it has run its course.

Without knowing what defines 'success,' it's impossible to define 'failure.'

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ Nov 10 2006, 05:13 PM) [snapback]347252[/snapback]</div>

Affirmative action is fine, so long as it is aimed at those who suffered genuine socio-economic hardships and it is not based upon skin color. Why should the offspring of a successful Latino or African American doctor, lawyer, dentist, etc., who attended elite prep schools should benefit while the child of a poor Caucasian family who had to support him or herself while going to a second or third rate public high school in a poor district be left to fend for him or herself?

 

You guys could screw up a Chinese fire drill!

A nice Italian guy drops by to tell us he is happy America is returning to civilized society (he hopes) and we promptly go off on a binge against the whole freakin' world!

The Indians got screwed, nobody's helping Darfur, African Americans are bilking us and Berman doesn't trust anybody except Jewish Nobel laureates.... What the hell!

Just to be provocative, how many great operas have the Jews given us compared to the Italians? How many Hebrew words are in our language compared to Latin? You can make all the biased comparisons you want but it doesn't make anybody's day easier. For every Feynman and Einstein the Jews gave us, they make up for it with a few Bermans.

I suspect that is the last we ever hear of Alberto. He just traded in his Prius for a Fiat. Is it asking too much for a polite dialog with a visitor in our midst? Nobody is asking you to give him a humanitarian reward or take him in for a month.

This is just plain rude behavior. As usual.

Does anybody have anything different to say than the last thousand posts?

Now let's hear how much I despise the Chinese.

Shabbat Shalom indeed!

 

Capitano, I gather that you preferred 840 and 842 to 882 and 884.

:lol:

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(AlbertoC67 @ Nov 10 2006, 09:08 AM) [snapback]346838[/snapback]</div>

Alberto, thanks for your opinion. However, do you really think Fahrenheit 9/11 was a "documentary"? I hope you don't read People magazine to get your opinion of us as well. Oh, and as a citizen of Italy, you really shouldn't be too concerned about gov't here in America....how does it affect you? Just curious.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IsrAmeriPrius @ Nov 10 2006, 08:26 PM) [snapback]347324[/snapback]</div>

Nah, just trying to pull some chains. He's right though. 20% of Nobels went to the Chosen, a phenomenon. Feynman is a personal hero of mine. It was interesting to note that he refused permission, twice, to be listed in a book of prominent Jewish scientists since he was a non-believer. But it looks like God believed in him. Einstein's major religious belief was that God didn't play dice!

I get tired of the instant downers DB pulls. Does Peter Mol ring a bell? He was a Dutch F/O who got fired after about ten years because of attitude. A very nice German F/A came into the cockpit to offer coffee one night and within three minutes he was shouting at her that she killed his grandmother. I saw hints of that here today and detest it.

I'm just a shabbos goy trying to do some weekend work. What a memory for flight numbers!

Shabbat Shalom

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Schmika @ Nov 10 2006, 09:24 PM) [snapback]347343[/snapback]</div>

Like the familiar "Butterfly Effect," when America sneezes, the rest of the world comes down with a cold. The gov't here in America sure is causing havoc in Iraq. Everybody is affected by what America does. The Chancellor of Germany got a back-massage from Bush last July. She found it chilling.

(I suspect Alberto is long gone with the reception he got today.)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Alnilam @ Nov 11 2006, 01:56 AM) [snapback]347349[/snapback]</div>

Maybe. Maybe not. Certainly, this isn't as international a forum as it could be, given where Prius are sold.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Schmika @ Nov 10 2006, 09:24 PM) [snapback]347343[/snapback]</div>

The actions of the United States government, especially in foreign policy matters, affect many, if not most, of the world's inhabitants.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Alnilam @ Nov 10 2006, 09:56 PM) [snapback]347349[/snapback]</div>

I knew that. But, you just provided me with an opportunity to demonstrate that I still remember some of these long gone international flight numbers. Every now and then I used to trade trips for my wife, when she was away from a computer; TLV, MXP and FCO were favorite destinations.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Schmika @ Nov 10 2006, 09:24 PM) [snapback]347343[/snapback]</div>

When a bull elephant goes berzerk, everyone and everything around is affected. America has gone completely, psychotically, berzerk. Alberto just dropped by to say thank you to the American people for removing a few of the psychotic leaders from power. He has a perfect right to do so, and most of us here appreciate his kind words.

Yes, Italy is affected when America is run by a criminally-psychotic moron who believes god is telling him to rain destruction on any country that looks cross-eyed at him.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(AlbertoC67 @ Nov 10 2006, 04:08 AM) [snapback]346838[/snapback]</div>

Thank you for your comment, Alberto. When Bush and his neocon buddies decided to attack Iraq my family in Denmark could not understand how such a thing could happen. I found myself apologizing for actions I fiercely did not and do not agree with (gee, does that make me unpatriotic?). Fortunately, because of my family here, they knew all Americans were not the Ugly Americans currently representing our nation for the last 6 years.

The angry people here on this website are a loud minority. They have a right to vent and tantrum their opinions, however ill in/formed they may be. They should be mindful that their presentation puts people off, people only hear the anger, not the words.

Thanks again, I hope we can redeem ourselves, in our own eyes as well as the world's eyes, in the coming years.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Alnilam @ Nov 10 2006, 09:56 PM) [snapback]347349[/snapback]</div>

You inspired me to research Italian and Italian-American Nobel laureates. There have been twenty:

Coincidentally, Rita Levi-Montalcini and Franco Modigliani happen to also be Jewish.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(AlbertoC67 @ Nov 13 2006, 06:09 AM) [snapback]348113[/snapback]</div>

I am ok with you being a liberal environmentalist. I tend to land more conservative on this front, but agree. We could be building wind power farms in many places in America and begin to produce more of our energy from wind. I also believe we should have a greatly advanced design for new nuclear power plants that can be eco-friendly, safer, and cheaper. we can find better ways to use less carbon based energy in America and I think we should be doing more in that direction.

That was a great suggestion for the environment. I don't see how that helps America stop the next 9/11 style attack. The muslims who look to destroy America and Isreal are not going to look at a revised energy policy and decide that we are now friends of theirs.

If Italy was ripe for a major attack on Rome, I would hope you and your countrymen would be working on ways to stop the attack before it happens. I would hope your government would take proactive steps to destroy your enemies before Rome suffered 50,000 casualties as a result of a chemical attack or dirty nuke.

You don't have to believe American intelligance agencies on whether or not we are threatened for attack. Just watch any news source. Our enemies are outspoken about the fact they want to destroy us.

The American readiness has been good enough so far since 9/11. The British are also doing a lot to try to stop the terrorism in their homeland. I think both of those stands make Italy less safe. I think that because Italy is seen as a free nation, and if your country is not working hard to prevent such an attack, you may end up suffering one because you will become the easiest target to attack for the enemies of freedom.

I hope that doesn't happen, but I ask you this... If Italy had a sworn enemy trying to find a way into your country to blow up one of your major cities, would you suggest a modified energy policy as a defense?

If for some reason, the enemies of freedom blow up Rome, will the people of Italy band together in support of guarding against future attacks? Would Italy tell America "No thanks on the help, just let Iran drop a 3rd or 4th nuke on us, we don't want to upset the world by fighting back"... I don't think so, not for a second. Italy and the whole world would be looking to America to come to the rescue.

I think it is stupidly hypocritical for the world to be crapping on America for our terror defense strategy now while every one of you keeps the America wallet card ready to pull out if you ever get in trouble and need some help. Stand with us and we will be there for you. Burn our flags in your streets and when you need us, we will still be there to defend you. We are an odd country that way.

Should America drop everything and walk out of Iraq tomorrow morning? What do you think about that, and what do you think would happen to the world if we did that?

As an Italian, I think you should be more concerned about being attacked than you are. I still have no idea why Spain got wacked, but they did. I don't know why Italy has not been hit. I think you should be expecting it. I guarantee the enemies are not looking at your environmental record when deciding to terrorize or not terrorize Italy. They are looking for opportunity and timing. Be ready. And, if you're not, I'm sure you can just get on the phone to America and we can push back your enemies for you again.

 

That war is started without ONU permission… only the dictators do the same, only the dictator use the public money and the life of the soldiers for interests not very clear.
A good president doesn’t lie…
Saddam was a bad dictator… he was the same also at the time of Iran-Iraq war…
Talking about gas-chambers: it was one of the worst page of GERMANY history, in Europe we SUFFERED the Nazi as most of us here in Italy suffered Mussolini.
Now german people are good people feeling big shame for their Nazi past.
If we want to go on in a useless quarrel accusing each other on the past, we can talk about the massacre of native Americans or the deportation of the black slaves from Africa to the cotton fields.
It’s not my intention, we must learn from our mistakes looking at the past only for that, it’s stupid drive our lifes looking at the rearview mirror.

In Italy we have big problems on everything caused by mafia (in the south) and bribery at all the levels of politics that determines the conditions of our country, I don’t know what is the end for us but I am very worried.

What proposals can I give you?
I think the world has three problems: the first is global warming that cause disasters like that in New Orleans and it’s only the beginning, the second is peace, we need to promote peace with other countries and export the democracy of dialogue and reciprocal help, the third is the right redistribution of natural resources.
If we want for us and our children a better future made by men among men like brothers we must work for that three things.
Something starts moving in these directions: in Switzerland each 100 euro spent for the shopping, 18 are spent for “equal commerce†goods.
In Germany there is a big effort in renewable resources for energy like solar and wind energy and many people find job for that!
But we are waiting for you, you are the biggest example, without your efforts in these ways the rest of the world remains hesitant.
Sign Kyoto! Australia, China and India will follow you… be sure.
Put out of international markets all the the product made outside the main rules on environment and human rights!
Stop oil and carbon age, we can! You can overly more!
Why must we wait for the end of oil and carbon to stop the fossil-age?
THE STONE AGE ‘S NOT FINISHED CAUSED BY THE END OF THE STONES!
We have only this planet, don’t forget it.
There is a lot of alternative ideas on energy, let’s use them!

Free yourself from all that worries built up for the interest of oil and weapons companies.
We all must not worry about economy, it’s a flexible science, it doesn’t need our hand to go on, I believe when a politician talks only about economy he wants to save someone’s interest fooling me!
About the difference between Repubblican and Democratic … sincerely it’s a little difficult to find the difference for an Italian, but I am convinced that all the parties all over the world can be reduced to the classic two factions representing the ancient struggle between the poor and the rich.

Thanks to all especially David.

God saves America
[/quote]

Several quick points on a busy monday:

The USA will NEVER EVER rely on the UN to tell us what battles we will or will not fight.

The people of Italy and Germany etc sat by as they turned to mass slaughter, tyranny, oppression what prevents that from happening again - nothing!

America's history has chapters in it that we are not proud of. Yet the pale in comparison to the tens of MILLIONS of people who were murdered, slaughtered, enslaved in Europe. The slave trade was a terrible period (mind you most current Americans were not even in America during that period - also remember that over half of Americans then decided it was worth fighting and dying for to end -the Civil War - Something that did not happen in Europe to correct the "Final Solution") but involved trying to keep the slaves alive for sale -- question would you have rather been a African being caught and transported for sale to the US or a Jew in Poland during the Nazi's where they were trying to kill you (terrible question - sorry).

Looking in the "rearview mirror" is important because Europe has a LOT to remember from its past and enough to guide it through the future (although it seems not to have learn from its history).

I too am worried about Europe - its current social system that is UNsustainable, its negative growth rate, its high unemployment, its economy that has been stagnant for sooo long, its Muslim immigration issues, its current domination by the French/German axis, its lack of military power or preparedness, its willingness in most parts to bow to terror (Spain, Denmark), etc. I think the future may have bypassed Europe - we shall see.

In terms of global problems - you place global warming #1 - I place it near bottom. #1 for me is Islamoterrorism - #1a is preventing Iran from going nuclear. Global warming whether true or not will not ever be an issue if my #1 or #1a develop to their full potential -- and here is my issue again with Europe NOT learning from the past. What if Hitler was pre-empted in 1938/1939? What if Europe stood up when he first started breaking treaty after treaty (kind of lake Saddam or Iran or North Korea -- another example of what happens if you put your head in the sand). If we do not pre-empt Iran or prevent Islamoterrorists from arming themselves with WMD's - it is our fault and you won't have to worry about global warming at all.

What are you willing to do if anything about my #1 or #1a - do you agree with me? Why or Why not?

Remeber, if you are wrong, the Stone Age will be upon us again, not from global warming but from people who currently want to return us there themselves in the way they "live" life.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Nov 13 2006, 02:52 PM) [snapback]348127[/snapback]</div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Nov 13 2006, 02:52 PM) [snapback]348127[/snapback]</div>

You mean: kind of like the USA? Ever heard of the Geneva Conventions?

There is probably no country in the world that hasn't made errors in the past. Personally, I think you should not blame a person for the faults of his ancestors, but hey, that's me. The most important is of course to learn from the past and act in the present. Not just your own past by the way. Europe has made horrible errors in the past and I hope the whole world will learn from this, just as I hope we are all learning from the stupidities of the USA.

America now (finally) seems to be standing up against Bush. AlbertoC67 is thanking the Americans who are taking this responsibility and I agree with him.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Nov 13 2006, 02:52 PM) [snapback]348127[/snapback]</div>

I too worry about Europe. However, I think the country that has proved most willing to bow to terror is the USA. Terror has influenced their whole society, made them go to war, take thousands of lives, give up their privacy, etc. Sometimes it seems more important to Americans that the government knows what they do than that they know what the government does. All of this based on the fear of terrorism. Has this prevented anything? Maybe. Has it solved anything? I doubt it.

 

...all I needed to read was you watched michael moore's f911, and drew conclusions from it..

...anyone who thinks f9/11 is even remotely balanced, is, to put it bluntly a fool. it's nothing more than anti-bush PROPAGANDA, I'd even go as far to say, with respect to the propaganda factor, it's right up there with "The Eternal Jew"....