Featured I'm buying a hybrid instead of an EV for my next car — here's why

I agree with everything in the article, I just hate the idea of having to sign a check for 70k...

 

Our last Toyota, a 2017 Prius Prime, had problems hopefully fixed in the Lexus NX 450h+ plug-in hybrid. Things to look out for:

• EV mode is a suggestion - the ICE, especially below 55 F (13 C) would run even if EV mode was selected
• absence of fast DC charging - 240 VAC, L2 AC charging is often power limited and can take hours to recharge the 18 kWh battery. In contrast, our 18 kWh battery recharges at just under 50 kW in 45 minutes at remote cities.
• too short EV range, 25 mi - our 2014 BMW i3-REx easily gave, no compromise EV 72 mi range. The claimed 40 mi EV range may work but I had 10 miles each way to work leaving only 5 mi EV for other chores. In contrast, our BMW i3 had 52 mi EV range to do serious chores.
• lost interior space - the Prius Prime raised the rear floor wasting interior space while fitting a rectangular battery in the cabin. A conformal battery with more interior space makes a lot of sense but better still, external to the cabin, under the floor pan.
• air cooled and heated battery - which is both slow and inefficient leading to excess engine operation.

I don't know the Lexus NX 450h+ but I do remember the 2017 Prius Prime. I did not see these items covered by the reviewer. I'm just listing them as a road-map of what to look for. In my case, I traded the low miles, two year old Prime on Tesla Model 3 and got a great price reduction. Regardless, the Lexus NX 450h+ sounds like a great ride while waiting for the EV of choice.

WHEN CROSSING A STREAM

Look for a rock somewhere in the middle. If it doesn't work out, pick a different rock or retreat. Regardless, it reduces the 'learning curve' and provides a place to grow to the new technology,

Bob Wilson

 

This is not at all unreasonable. Say the electric powertrain is capable of producing 100 HP when the battery is above 20% charge at room temperature. And 80 HP at 10%. And 60 HP at 10% and -10 Celsius.

What would you suggest should be the maximum power demanded by the user in EV mode? At 60 HP, you're not taking advantage of powertrain capabilities vast majority of the time. At 80 HP, you're asking the car for ICE backup if in worst case scenarios.

Tradeoffs of this nature are necessary. I'd prefer the car occasionally turning on ICE than always limiting electric power or having inconsistent response to throttle input.

 

Our other PHEV, a 2014 BMW i3-REx had no such temperature limitation. The ICE would only run when the battery SOC was low enough or coded, as early as 75% SOC. I had a different PHEV to compare. Having the ICE come on too soon led to the Prius Prime becoming driveway art. Still, if that Prius Prime control law makes you happy, go for it.

In my case, I had to deal with limited access, cross-town, freeways. Below 55 F, it didn't take much for traffic to trigger ICE operation. We also tend to have relatively high humidity and defogging was another trigger.

Sorry about my imprecise English. Our 2014 BMW i3-REx is 18 kWh and we agree the Prius Prime 8.8 kWh battery was in the Prius Prime.

The Prius Prime problem was my work was 10 miles away so round trip, 20 miles EV left only 5 miles for other chores. In contrast, the 72 mi EV range of the BMW i3-REx meant I had 52 mi EV for other chores. Meanwhile, the Prius Prime had to be plugged in pretty quickly and for a longer time than the 7.2 kW rate of the BMW i3-REx.

My recommendation is subtract your work, round-trip miles from the PHEV electric range. Whatever is left is how much you'll have for other chores and errands. I didn't which led to an early Prius Prime retirement.

Bob Wilson

 

look at the bright side. Over the past decade the dollar has been devalued by nearly ½. think of it as buying a $35,000 car.

 

I understand what is meant by the buying power of the $1 (dollar).
Still, from another perspective, we (whomever we are) may be waiting for the promised $25 - 35K EV to arrive for test drive.

I was just reading in the Gen 4 Prius Technical Discussion - Power Split Device thread pg 3 and 4 about different perspectives from a few members related to Manufacturing Price Targets over the last decade and a half and how inflation should or shouldn't be included in the targets calculations.

tagline perspectives.

 

i would like a bev, and it would work for 99% of my driving. it's the other 1% that is hindering me, along with the price.
while tesls were 40 and 50k, primes were 20k. even other bevs are still starting too high, current economics excluded, we'll get back to 'normal' someday.

 

From an online search, I am getting 450h+ MSRP starting from $56,900. Not that I can afford $57K anyway. The bottom line is if I can pay $57K + for a daily driver, then I would not be worrying about the price of gas or electricity.

On the contrary to Bob's opinion, I find PP to be a perfect compromise. It gets far better mpg than a subcompact ICE vehicle that costs ~$20K like Nissan Sentra. For the note, I paid ~$20K for all three PPs I have purchased so far. I can drive mostly in EV mode even in winter down to the low 20sF, unlike Bob. I never had a need to charge my PP on the road. Besides, there is no DC fast charger around me. Yeah, it would be nice to have more than 25miles of EV range, more cargo space, and better battery thermal management. But all of that means a bigger battery and more expensive components. A PP is a compromise that I can live with for a car that can be purchased at around $20K or at less than half the price of Model3.

 

Inflation always does have that effect eventually, but from February 2022 I have to go back to February 1993 for the ratio to be ½. That's more like three decades than one.

CPI Inflation Calculator

Also on the bright side, if we're going to use 1993 dollars for everything, we're looking at roughly $2 gasoline.

 

Discontinued this year, a used BMW i3-REx for a good price might be an option. It is a 4-seater but pretty flexible.

Bob Wilson

 

I am in the same ballpark as you. PHEV is the perfect fit for our family. We rarely exceed the 30 mile EV range of our PHEV and if we do the car gets over 50 mpg on gas.

Different tools for different people. Everyone does not have to drive the same type vehicle or have the same preference.

For us a BEV is a bit impractical and I can't justify the cost - but- so what, it might be a perfect fit for another's lifestyle.

For our situation most weeks we use no gas and the PHEV gives us most importantly - a choice- gas or electric.

I wonder if it is the fact that PHEV owners have a choice of running on gas or electric that rubs individuals the wrong way.

 

We currently have 2021 PP for most of our daily drive for both myself and my wife. And we also have a 2014 Pathfinder Hybrid midsize 7 seater SUV for occasional long trips and hauling needs. I would like to replace a PathHy with a Pacifica Plug-in (PHEV) and replace PP with a BEV. But as a strictly daily driver, I want a BEV with a final price of around $20K. Currently, base Leaf S with a 150miles EV range is the only option (after the full tax credit, which is running out for Nissan as well as for Toyota). But Leaf S would be a huge downgrade from our current PP Ltd in terms of quality, reliability, and usability. And the sad thing is that switching to Leaf will not save me any operational cost (Leaf is rated only 123 City MPGe/99 Highway MPGe/111 Combined).

Alternatively, I thought about replacing the PP with Rav4Prime and PathHy with the Maverick Hybrid pick-up track. But neither cars are available right now. When Toyota runs out of tax credit, the Rav4Prime price will be too expensive to justify.

 

I'd much rather have a car that flips over to HV mode for a few minutes out of every 4 or 5 months instead of a car like the BMW i3-REX which is fairly inefficient. According to the .Gov website that BMW is a dog since it is a compact car that uses 32kWh/100 miles and only gets 31 MPG.

But I use the Prime as it was designed to be used. It's always charged up and ready to use, so I have driven more than 40 miles in a day on battery with short charging sessions at home between errands. Around town it uses as little as 19kWh/100 and on the freeway I've recently made 450 mile trips using only 69 mpg.

 

You make an important point about recharging. I mentioned that most trips we make are well under the 30 mile EV range of our PHEV.

We also have a Level 2 charger in the garage and the PHEV is always plugged in when not being driven. When we return home if the EV range is exhausted in around 2 to 2.5 hours it is completely charged and ready to go another 30 miles.

I installed the Level 2 charger myself. I did it because the PHEV is so popular, it is the car of choice for the drivers in the house. The Level 1 charger just didn't have time to fully charge the vehicle during the day because of the popularity of the vehicle with our families drivers.

With the 2 hours time to recharge a PHEV, depending on the driving interval for the individuals use, it is not out of the question to have the PHEV go 30 miles-60 miles- 90 miles or even more on EV only within a single day if it is all around town.

 

Although I am completely content with my current daily driver 2007 Gen 2, which I've had for 5? years now and 80k miles, the Maverick is the only new vehicle that currently has nagging in my mind. I'm intrigued by it. Would love to have it to replace my 102k mile K1500, which is more truck than I need for 95% of jobs. The other 5% could be replaced by a medium-ish trailer. Kind of waiting to make sure all the kinks are worked out of it before pulling trigger.

 

We are talking about a car that still has a gas engine. Unless the design goal was for an EREV or REx subset, we shouldn't be insisting on a PHEV behaving like a BEV. Doing so leads to higher costs for the PHEV and less efficient use of energy sources.

Right now, the majority of companies making BEVs don't have the manufacturing base to make the cars in numbers necessary to get the economies of scale needed for a low price BEV.

 

Yeah, I placed an order for a Maverick when Ford first started to take an order. Only to find out later that they could not deliver. Now, they are not even taking a new order, I would have to wait for the 2023 model later this year.

 

At least you weren't hoping for Mercedes G-class. Production to the end of 2024 is already spoken for.
Mercedes-Benz Stops Taking G-Class Orders, Everything Sold Out till Q4 2024 - GTspirit