BT Stiffening Plate Review

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(firepro @ Nov 5 2006, 06:03 PM) [snapback]344263[/snapback]</div>

Well at least theres one person out here that you've earned respect from.. thats me...
it takes alot of guts to admit what you've admitted to.

And I'll join you....
And the only reason I can detect any of that is because "it takes one to know one".

I'm never ceased to be amazed at a good majician show.. I don't know if you've ever gone to vegas and seen any.. but they mess with your head really really really bad... I've been on the front row and had them 5 feet from me doing things that just seemed impossible...right out in the open in full brightness!
Every once in a while I see thier trick, but not very often.. it just boggles my logic!

That, along with some other things I've seen has taught me that my eyes and my logic can be very misleading....actually work against me!....... hence the power majicians have and hence the power good con artists and salesman who know how to get your attention focused on the obvious so you won't see the "not so obvious".

Call it slight of hand.. or just flat out deception. The world is full of it, so I don't blame anyone for being wary.
And I don't blame someone for feeling they need "something" to make them breath easier... even if its bunk, it makes you feel better I suppose?... I just feel the evidence that really has merit has already been provided.

If data on paper really mean't anything and/or didn't cost a small fortune, it may be worth it.

Let me ask you gentlemen... if it were your company would you fullfill the same request you are asking Brian to do?.. and if so, how would you do it without it costing a small fortune?
If you do your own test it won't be considered unbiased... what is your solution?.. Remember.... think as if this were your very own company so you won't place undue burden on yourself "or Brian".

And once you do it, would the results really bring any more income to offset the price incurred?

I think Brian is reasonable if you can be reasonable too... but don't ask him to jump hoops and do 3 circles with a half gainer if your gonna cut him down anyway?.. Would you spend energy and money to please such requests?

If it took that to actually sell your plate, but there are only a very few people nervous about taking a 150.00 chance. What can you buy replaceing any part on a car that cost less?.. not many!

Haven't you've heard "Retail Sucks?" Dealing with people with unrealistic expectations is one of the most hardest and unrewarding business ventures there is!

Give the poor guy a break..... and what he has made over the years added with the time he's put in this.. not counting his operating costs almost isn't worth the trouble in my book.

There is vials, attachments, cones,solutions etc.. all kinds of snake oil out there claiming to give you better gas mileage etc...but thats the beauty of this forum.. it weeds that out for the most part.

I've asked myself about some other products with outlandish claims and have been set straight immediately.

I think the plate has by far passed its initiations phase and has proven itself without contest.

What if Brian released some data that showed the plate under test performed "thus and so"... wouldn't you have to admit, you would rip it to shreds with cross examination, appeals and counter suits?
If you say no.... you promise?.....really?


Its no big deal... the car drives fine without it. I would have never missed it if I had not seen it on the forum and read all the raves.

It did more than I expected... If my post didn't get deleted, you will see that I couldn't tell for sure at first.. even after 2 days!.. I was reluctanct to judge it because I couldn't honestly say.



But then I took a 400 mile drive through mountain roads from Vancouver Washington over White pass and to Yakama, down south back to the columbia Gorge and East back home.
I was totally convinced after that trip!

Then later when some windy days came as the wind rips down the Columbia Gorge, I again reaffirmed my belief.

If I didn't have the plate, I wouldn't be giving Brian so much defense.... but I'm pretty analytical myself and I don't think the plate will do the "transformer" trick and turn your car into a Indy car, but for 150 bucks it does a whole lot.. and it does it for the life of the car.

Does that mean from then on you can forget about alignments or tires?.. no thats a given standard you cannot escape.


I don't know what to tell you... figure your gonna blow and throw away 150.00 bucks... expect it not to do much... then you will be delighted when it does. If it doesn't work after your tests.. come out here and proclaim it.. just make sure your being objective.

If your gonna drive extremely conservative, you don't qualify as a good tester... don't even bother.
You wouldn't test any suspension in such manner.

I think people that are honestly set to prove it doesn't work are risky folks to encourage to buy.. thats why Brian would rather the extreme skeptical to not buy.....because the placebo effect can work in reverse too.... if someone is sure it won't work, they will make sure it doesn't somehow regardless of what data and tests have already proven.

Sometimes.. its good to sleep on it. Empirical data alone is never enough.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(KTPhil @ Nov 5 2006, 01:06 PM) [snapback]344136[/snapback]</div>

Is that true? Back of the envelope, assuming the deflection is linear with displacement which is probably worst case: a twist of 1 deg at the brace roughly midship would be (1 deg * 3.14 / 180 * 50 in = .87) about an inch of deflection, 2 inches wheel to wheel. That seems like a lot for the suspension to deal with, equivalent to a pretty bumpy road. However, I don't have any idea if the presumed 1 deg twist is reasonable. I was just spitballing your claim. More insight would be appreciated.

Related to all this, does anybody else remember the post that was pre-crash by somebody modeling the frame as fan folded piece of paper. Placing a pencil transverse to the folds at midpage definitely dampened the transmission of vibrations from corner to corner. Illuminating, but I have no idea how accurate. Of course, that's probably why Toyota put their brace there, so it still an open question to the skeptics whether Brian's brace brings anything to the party. Was I the only one playing with folded paper?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rest @ Nov 5 2006, 03:31 PM) [snapback]344217[/snapback]</div>

Normally group discounts are for a limted time span and with the intent to "introduce" a new product and stir excitement.

This product has already been in motion for a long time and has proven itself.

If it were your company, would you do such a request?

Why are we all being so selfish and making Brian out to be a bad guy?

He has had alot more grace than I would have ever had.

Brian.. maybe you need a long vacation to get away from all this and just let your plate sell itself?

There is no reason to feel you have to defend anything.. its already proven itself hundreds of times over.

I wouldn't stress over it.... take a break..... Costa Rica is nice!

 

Well said, windstrings. I just want to praise Brian again for releasing such an awesome product. I would also like to curse him for implanting this 'handling bug' in me. Perfomance is addictive, and I've dropped down a few thousand bucks feeding my new found vice

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(KTPhil @ Nov 5 2006, 10:02 PM) [snapback]344294[/snapback]</div>

Remember, when you don't drink the Kool-Aid, the cult members turn on you.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(KTPhil @ Nov 5 2006, 08:02 PM) [snapback]344294[/snapback]</div>

I don't even know your family members?

All I know is your words.... I'm not attacking you personally, your probrably a fun guy to hang out with.. I'm attacking your stinkin thinkin.

Don't take it personal... I don't know you and prob never will.. I only know your words... and the meanings they imply.

I had to go back and look.. I'm thinking.. was I disrespectful of his wife?

You really took that personal!
I was meaning if you hash this over do the enth degree, no one would want to go shopping with you.. they would be there all day and the next!...

Hey is funny!... lighten up!....nothing against you.

I brought up hypothetical issues with your family members "that again I don't know" to bring home the point of the way you think. Sometimes we can't tell how we think unless we look at how our actions cause others to react.

I'm trying to get you to see what your doing by reminding you of the way others react to your way of thinking so you get a clue of what I'm saying.

We are often the hardest ones to see. We think we see others just fine, but are blind to ourselves and need the input from those closest to us.

If I was shooting in the dark and offended you wrongfully, I apologize.. but if it brought a shread of truth.. I don't.

Its not my job to try and show you anything, other than I feel somewhat of a burden to defend someone who gets attacked from every direction.

You got offended because I confronted you... how do you think one man feels when many confront and challenge and almost accuse him of fraud, all the whiles proclaiming they are not?

I'm sure your a grown man and mature enough to handle the little I troughed out... it wasn't mean't towards you... like I said, I don't know you.... just consider if there is any truth to what I say and don't get mad at me,which would only be a distraction from the truth, but you can grapple with my words.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Nov 5 2006, 03:25 PM) [snapback]344212[/snapback]</div>

Instead of relying on testamonials from people he doesn't know, maybe he wants a simple rational argument? That's what I'm looking for, and it's not much to expect.

I'm like KTPhil. What you're seeing is critical thinking, something not very common today in our society, and it shows. Also, I'm a scientist. So I won't just assume someone is correct unless it makes logical sense. Ala "Let's invade Iraq beacuse we found some aluminum tubes there."

If something is true, there should be rational evidence that it's true beyond just a bunch of people saying "yeah, I think or feel it's true". A half-million Iraqis died for literally nothing as a result of poor critical thinking. (Ref Mortality after the 2003 invasion of Iraq: a cross-sectional cluster sample survey, The lancet, http://www.thelancet.com/webfiles/images/j...3606694919.pdf)

And you may wonder how invading Iraq relates to the stiffening plate beyond the fact that you may drive a prius in part to reduce foreign oil dependence; If you won't apply critical thinking to a 150$ purchase, how can you expect to critically think about your vote?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Display Name @ Nov 5 2006, 10:17 PM) [snapback]344350[/snapback]</div>

How about instead of asking Brian to spend 25000.00 to do a definative study, you spend 150.00 bucks and do your own? Yours is the only one your gonna believe anyway?

Admit it!.. you can put the burden on someone else to spend hundreds of times more than your willing to spend on yourself.
Do you really think anybodys test but your own will be satifactory?

What is the big problem here?

Do you not have 150.00 bucks?... if not... then go away... your just here to argue.
If you do.. then buy the plate and end all this insanity!

No one else has ever gotten out here and said they were disappointed.. maybe you can be the first!

 

Wow, for someone who doesn't know me, he sure likes to make statements about what I would or wouldn't believe, what my family thinks of me, and other irrelevant imaginary personal attributes.

Hmmm, making repeated claims without any basis in knowledge or fact... anyone detecting a pattern here?


One question for Brian: Would you want this guy representing your company and broadcasting your company reputation in this manner?

 

I was gone for a few days and this thread has really exploded. i have read the past 25 posts and this is getting comical. If you dont think that the bt stiffening plate will help because you dont accept the theory behind it then don't buy it. asking bryan to prove it works just so you can feel better about your purchase is ridiculous. i was so impressed with my stiffening plate i talked my friend into buying one at the 20 dollars off that they are running now in the store. I only know that the bt plate transformed my car and made a believer out of me. i don;t have the need to understand why it works the way it does but i just know it does.

i think that bryan is being a really good sport about all of this and i have to hand it to him if it was me i would have olst my cool a long time ago.

Ken Stewart
2006 Prius #6

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(KTPhil @ Nov 5 2006, 10:57 PM) [snapback]344361[/snapback]</div>

First of all, you have to specify who your talking about.. because if its yourself, I know the answer to that.

But it does'nt really matter.. he didn't hire me... it won't hurt my feelings if he says no..... He couldn't afford me anyway... he doesn't make enough profit! :lol:

Brian knows I rave over his product and believe in it and the only thing I'm broadcasting is raves over how well it does... so what are you broadcasting?

Do you really mean "Do you want him challenging people who are just asking simple technical questions that require expensive surveys and tests and won't listen to sound reasoning instead but want empiracle proof that will never satisfy?.. Is that what you mean't to say?

I'm not quite understanding your request... maybe someone else can decipher it better, but you are the guys that are the skeptics... I am the guy who is trying to show you the error of your ways.

I think you guys really overestimate the lucrativeness of such a troublesome venture as this and are not being realistic about good business sense and are only thinking about yourselves.


I"m really not trying to be disrespectful of anyones loved ones.
But we keep going in circles? and no one is answering my questions, but rather getting all sentimental on me and accusing me of attacking thier families and allowing my points to be diverted because they don't like "how" I say it and don't tickle there ears while I do it?...

Wow! In what form does truth have to come before you will accept it?.. I would ask "from your mother?".. but I don't want to offend anyone!

I could be wrong here?.. sure!... I shoot in the air and hit the wrong duck occasionally, but I think you know I'm whispering in your ear and you just won't admit it.

Just a whisper.....
Buy the plate, buy the plate, buy the plate, buy the plate, you are getting sleepy now.. buy the plate, buy the plate.. . now when you wake up, you will have full understanding.... are you ready?

WAKE UP!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Ken Stewart @ Nov 5 2006, 10:06 PM) [snapback]344364[/snapback]</div>

All I asked was

"I've seen a lot of anecdotal impressions of the performance of the stiffening plate. Can you describe the structural function of the plate and why it affects steering and stability so dramatically?"

I wish someone would just have said "no".

How can I unsubscribe from this thread?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(KTPhil @ Nov 5 2006, 06:02 PM) [snapback]344294[/snapback]</div>

Hi Phil I had the same skepticism about the stiffening plate as you do. Just going back to basic physics will show you why I was skeptical. Just on the principle of crossed lines multiplying force at the point of crossing shows that the plate is not wide enough to reduce any of the stresses seen at that point. For this reason I went with Tom's rear suspension stiffening plate. Which also replaces the original stiffening plate but also goes to the outside of the chassis and is mounted just forward of the rear suspension mounting point and also adds a stiffening bar that goes between the trailing arms mounting points on the chassis.

With all this talk about placebo effect/how much these plates really affect handling I did my own testing this weekend this took me two days to do. So I went through a lot of effort to try to make this objective. I still have my original wheels and tires mounted and balanced so the first thing I did is remove my 17 inch wheels and tires and put on the originals then removed Tom's rear stiffening brace. I kept the floor stiffening brace on because that's closer to the front suspension than the rear.

Not too far for my house we have this nice 90° turn and there's no blind spots and is pretty much out-of-the-way so I started going around that 90° turn to the right until the original tires start to fail/squeal and lose control that was the easy part. That was approximately between 18 and 22 miles an hour. So I went home and put the 17 inch wheels and tires back on and I did the same thing I'd never did make those tires squeal or lose control but the traction control would kick in when the right front tire would start to lose traction. I did this three or four times and this happened approximately between 27 and 30 miles an hour. Now I went home and removed the original stiffening plate and replaced it with the Tom's piece and I waited for the next day, to day so this morning I went back out to the turn and start doing it again to the right and again I kept going faster and faster until the traction control kick in and this happened at approximately 35 to 38 miles an hour and by the way absolutely no tire squeal / feeling of out of control. The car was rocksolid.

The blitz tuning Springs in my signature are still sitting in my garage I was going to put them in this week but the this instead, this was more fun.

Now if I had access to a BT stiffening plate I will do it all over again to see the difference just to put this all to rest because at this rate this discussion is going nowhere fast.
As I said in another post, going with Tom's products will cost you. Just the two I have cost 814.00 that includes shipping and tax.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Display Name @ Nov 5 2006, 11:28 PM) [snapback]344369[/snapback]</div>

From this threat?... a freudian slip I suppose! :lol:

At the top, go to "my controls", then on the left under in bold "subscriptions" there is "view topics"
Once you go there and on the right, check the box of the thread you want to unsubscribe to and go to the bottom of the page and hit unsubscribe with selected.

Piece of cake!

come back and let us know how well the plate worked for you!

Make sure you put it under the car... not your pillow!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ynono @ Nov 5 2006, 11:33 PM) [snapback]344373[/snapback]</div>

My hats off to you for being willing to do something yourself rather than put the burden on someone else when someone else is doing just fine.

The only problem with your test is that someone had to either give you toms brace or you had to buy it?
that means taking a chance?

If you use the BT brace.. someone will have to buy it?

God forbid any of the skeptics take a chance and just buy the damn thing?

If you bought Toms brace yourself, I commend you on your faith. These guys will not take any risk to save their soul.

If your willing to take the risk for them, you should be commended and get the PC medal of bravery and valor... not making light of you...just keeping it light.... but the skeptics seem to be the ones with no money?

At least you were willing to buy the plate "I'm assuming".

Now if we were selling Toms brace on this thread.. I'm sure you would get 50 different questions about why you didn't do it this way, and how do you know, and what if, and what was the humidity, and how are you so sure,and did you touch your brakes ever during the turns, and just how sharp was that turn?.. did you get out and measure it?.. what instrument did you use? was it calibrated? etc etc... anyway.. keep up the good work.....

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ynono @ Nov 6 2006, 12:33 AM) [snapback]344373[/snapback]</div>

I'm not familiar with this principal, could you explain it further or cite a reference? Also, I tried to find references to Tom's suspension test reports, but was not successful. Could you give me a hint?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Nov 5 2006, 09:48 PM) [snapback]344376[/snapback]</div>

Yes the Tom's stiffening plates are all mine bought and paid for. B)

Boy if we started the thread on the Tom's plates you're right I think it would go down the exact same way. :blink:

The biggest difference in the way the car feels. I would say has to be due to the tires and wheels. Looking at the speeds of my little test that I did it seems that the brace made the biggest improvement but as far as feel the tires did more for the feeling of the car for me then braced did.

All the instruments that I used for this test are calibrated to the seat of my pants which is good
enough for me and like you that's really all that matters.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(RonH @ Nov 5 2006, 10:39 PM) [snapback]344385[/snapback]</div>

I can see you didn't do too well in physics did you. But here's a simple test that you can do at home. Go and find yourself a piece of plastic and cut a one-inch square out of it. Grab it at opposite ends with your thumb and index finger and pull it straight apart and see how hard it is to do that. Now take the original piece of plastic at least 6 inches long and grab at the ends again and poll you'll see that it will be a lot easier to pull apart with a longer piece of plastic and as your pulling you'll see the crossed lines of force. There is your physics lesson for the day. :huh:


If that is not good enough for you go to your local hobby shop and look for their wing covering material
the plastic ones and read their specifications and you'll see their tensile strength being somewhere in the range of 20,000 to 30,000 psi and you can do the same test with that material and really see the lines of force this material is a lot stronger then the typical home plastic stuff. <_<



Now as far as Tom's testing it looks like you didn't finish reading my whole post 433 so go back and read that post (433). :blink:

Now I'm not a schoolteacher and for some reason, RonH you're really beginning to rub me the wrong way so from now on I would really appreciate it if you would at least read the post and if you don't understand the concept or something else that I say, look it up yourself and quit asking me to explain myself. :angry:

Brian of (BT Tech) my hats off to you for your patience with all of us myself included.

 

There's only one thing you can definitely and conclusively come away from this dead horse thread with, and it's windstrings is the arguably the official spokesperson for the BT Plate, bar none, burning villages not withstanding.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NuShrike @ Nov 6 2006, 02:42 AM) [snapback]344399[/snapback]</div>

Nah.. I've just been the most vocal lately and everyone is letting me have the wheel. It will be thier turn soon and I'll go back in my hole under my rock.

Believe me, there are tons of guys out there that will defend the plate. I know very little about it, other than my own experience, "it works".... but I didn't fall for it lightly. I was very careful and systematic in my approach.

I know Ron would ask me to tell him "how" I was systematic in my approach, but since he's blocked me out with his "ignore" switch he can't see thats he's doing exactly what I said he would do if someone focused on Toms plate or claimed they had done any type of tests.

Poor guy... maybe he's on a fixed income and he has to count every penny... but then why would have have bought a prius.... oh yea... saving them gas pennies you know! :blink: Makes sense to me!

Enough picking on Ron......

See now I can talk about him all I want and he doesn't even know as long as someone doesn't copy my post!.. LOL!


Poor Ynono is getting irritated with Ron just humming a few bars.... what if he were Brian and had been listening to the same song over and over and over!

It does tend to get a bit comical at times dealing with human nature... you have to laugh, otherwise, you go postal!