BT Stiffening Plate Review

I just want to point out that for some BT brace users, namely me, didn't have to drive a winding road or in windy conditions to feel the difference. I immediately felt the difference in the first few blocks of driving after it was installed. The first difference for me was a huge reduction in having to make tiny steering adjustments at all speeds. The car tracked a cleaner line/curve. (And I find it difficult to accept that this could be a placebo effect as I am making a definite change in how I'm steering before and after installing the BT brace.) Of course, I also concur with all the other users about better handling, cornering, etc.. At $165, it's a far less expensive modification than anything else out there... and it works!

 

Does the BT Stiffening Plate apply to the 2007, which we just bought, as it does to the 2006?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(OUscarb @ Mar 8 2006, 05:10 PM) [snapback]222404[/snapback]</div>

<div align="center">1st off, I hope this review helps anyone who is on the fence about ordering the plate. I almost didn't post this since others have, but I felt compelled to.</div>

I just wanted to give my opinion on the BT Stiffening Plate. My feelings were,†if it really needed a better plate, Toyota surely would have built it that wayâ€. Well, it does, and they didn’t. I’m skeptical about such “improvements†and have to be convinced. So I purchased the BT Stiffening Plate. I live in Oklahoma, and have generally rough roads around, plus a lot of wind, 30+mph the last 2 days. Right now I am approaching 5000 mikes on our ’06 Prius, so I’ve had a real good opportunity to get “use to†to the original plate. After installing the BT Plate, I have put 200 miles on the car.

How can a bigger “stifferâ€, (and prettier), plate really make any difference?

<div align="center">Here is my opinion of the BT Plate:</div>

1) I immediately could “feel†the difference in the handling of the Prius as soon as I took off. Going down a rather rough road, I didn’t seem to “feel†the bumps and vibrations through the seat as before. It “felt†as if the suspension was now “absorbing†more of the shocks and bumps, and the car was “tighterâ€, as if someone had finally attached the butt of the car to the front. I could hear the bumps more than feel them. Maybe it’s in my head……nope, it’s different!

2) The center of gravity of the car also seemed to move from the sides to the center. On turns and curves, such as highways, (with a lot of wind), the car now has more center to it. In other words, it used to “feel†as if the back of the car would “tip†or lean, moving away from the turn. Now it seems as the cars weight has moved more to the center as you turn, making the back of the car “feel†as if it is now attached to the front and staying inside, and aligned. It all moves as one, the Prius doesn’t “tip†or push out of the turns. You have a “tighter†control over the car. This is much better!
3) With the wind blowing hard the last few days, I have had a very good chance to A/B the plates. Yesterday with the original plate and 30mph winds, the Prius really whipped me around going down the highway. At times I would get looks from other drivers wondering if I was changing lanes. After the BT Plate install, all the fighting went away. In 30+mph wind today, I had no problem staying in my “space†and in control. The difference here was night & day! The few times the 35-40mph gust did get me, the Prius did move, but it was a “tight, in control†move. No more whipping around and jerking the steering wheel to compensate. If for this reason alone, the plate is well worth having. I feel better knowing my wife will have more “control†also.

So, is the “BT Stiffening Plate†worth it? I say, absolutely…every penny and I’m skeptical, and don’t like parting with $160 without being sure it helps. It does.

You say your’06 Prius drives and handles ok with the original plate, well so did I, and I was wrong. This plate makes a very noticeable “control†difference. You feel more “one†with the car.

Should you buy it? Yes if you can swing it. You will not regret it.

My 2 cents.

OUscarb
Oklahoma
2006 SSB
[/b][/quote]

 

Yes, the benifits of our stiffening plate apply to 2004-2007 model Prius'.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(rseliger @ Nov 4 2006, 06:30 PM) [snapback]343877[/snapback]</div>

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(OUscarb @ Mar 8 2006, 04:10 PM) [snapback]222404[/snapback]</div>

Ok, this alone has scared me away from trying this product...

 

Brian,

I've seen a lot of anecdotal impressions of the performance of the stiffening plate. Can you describe the structural function of the plate and why it affects steering and stability so dramatically?

Is the existing structure that flexible?

Thanks!

D Name

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Display Name @ Nov 4 2006, 09:06 PM) [snapback]343967[/snapback]</div>

Wow.. either you didn't read all the posts or you have to go back to post #1 to get that statement... let me add the rest for you:

Yea, you probrably better not buy the plate if this report makes you hesitant!


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Display Name @ Nov 4 2006, 09:37 PM) [snapback]343978[/snapback]</div>

You guys need to quite making Brian answer the same questions over and over and over and over... he has a life too... We are lucky he even checks in at all... how many products are out there for the prius that you will never hear from the owner of the company that sells them at all.
Brian has alot more patience than me.

The word is out so well now, he should never have to speak.

I suggest you go back and read some of the prior post ... their all over the forum.

The car is made like a horseshoe in the back with the open ends going around the muffler area and connected by the stiffening plate... a floppy plate only does part of the job.. Brians plate finishes it.

Look at the pics provided. http://priuschat.com/shop/product_info.php/products_id/21

 

"You guys need to quite making Brian answer the same questions over and over and over and over... "

Really? Over the last few months I've read all 400+ posts and the answer to his question is nowhere to be found:

"Can you describe the structural function of the plate and why it affects steering and stability so dramatically? Is the existing structure that flexible?"

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Nov 4 2006, 12:21 PM) [snapback]343773[/snapback]</div>

Doesn't driving like RacerX defeat the purpose of having a fuel efficient vehicle?


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Nov 5 2006, 12:49 AM) [snapback]343999[/snapback]</div>

Well looking at those pictures shows me Toyota already has a plate there.


But maybe if we got a group purchase (better than the current deal of $145), I would buy one and see for myself if it works or not.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(KTPhil @ Nov 5 2006, 12:01 AM) [snapback]344022[/snapback]</div>

The search abilities of the forum do lack a bit... but its there several times over the past year, I remember specifially reading about these issues and I"ve posted myself.

And giving you the benifit of a doubt, I know alot of juicy technical info was lost in a PC crash about a year ago.
But the Plate has always been a very active issue to talk about.

I just explained a little in my last post about the horseshoe and the pictures.

but yes the stock plate only stops the horseshoe from opening and closing, not wiggleing up and down.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Nov 4 2006, 10:49 PM) [snapback]343999[/snapback]</div>

Looked at the pics and yep, there it is. Still can't figure out why the car is flexing so much that wind gusts apparently move people out of their lane. If the car flexes enough to change the camber (or caster?!) holy cow we're all in deep trouble!

I was joking about being scared by this plate moving the center of mass - sorry, could have said such. In order to move the CM, the plate would have to be a sizeable fraction of the weight of the car </punchline> yet this is physically true.

I have read on this thread all over the forum and haven't see any detailed engineering explanations for why this plate helps so much. At first blush, I'd think that having enough flex in the body to affect the steering would lead to metal fatigue in short order, which obviously can't be true (can it? will our priuses all snap in half at 200k?)

Also, I've used the search feature. Something seems out of whack, and I have not found anything but anecdotal info.

So I simply went to the next step.

If you know of the FAQ section or post that has the engineering treatment with a little rigor, I'm all eyes.

Regardless, love this forum and the dialogue!

 

"Benefit of the doubt"? What doubt? I stated I have read all 400 posts in this thread, and I have also read all 100 in the other current plate thread. The info you say Brian is asked for repeatedly is not there, and hasn't been since I joined a year and a half ago, site crashes or no. When I say "show me" and you reply that you doubt me, you have it backwards. And, by the way, don't answer the question. Let's stay on topic, please.

I am not claiming it doesn't work, I am an "agnostic" about it... show me how it works and I can believe it is capable of what many say it does. Until then, I am unconvinced. Testimonials from those who have already paid are as unconvincing as those ads for holistic vitamin therapy or dramatic weight loss/muscle gain on TV. Sure, they believe it works, but that does not mean it actually works, just that those people are satisfied. When I see claims that they can now corner at twice the speed, though, I have serious doubts about the ability of some to be objective.

The reason I have doubts about the plate is that the car would have to flex so far at that point in order for a change in suspension geometry to occur. An argument that showed how a given plate deflection translates to a given suspension alignment difference would go a long way. Even a string gauge measurement on chassis flex at that point would at least show that the stiffer plate actually inhibits movement enough to matter. I saw the plate stiffness analysis posted before the crash, but that only shows the plate is stiff--it does nothing to show that stiffness at that point has an appreciable impact on suspension geometry. It is impressive to the engineering novice, but it does not address the question raised about its effectiveness.

I can add titanium door handles; there is no doubt they would be well made of the finest materials and 100 times stronger that stock, but you couldn't convince me it changes handling.

 

When I designed the BT Tech stiffening plate for the Prius, I took design elements that I used with success on the Corvette platform and applied the same principals to the Prius.

The short answer to peoples question regarding the stiffening plate is as follows:

An automotive structure or body has to be designed to be rigid enough to resist compressional and torsional loads that the body is subject to in normal operation.

In the Prius the rear subsection of the body has considerable flex as one can feel the body “jiggle†as you drive on certain road surfaces. The lack of rigidity in this area of the car also contributes to the necessity to make constant steering inputs to maintain directional control of the car.

The stiffening plate ties together the area on the body that is causing this instability and enhances the rigidity of the chassis (body). When our plate is attached one can almost instantly feel the difference in that the car does not have that “tail wagging the dog†effect anymore and straight line stability is much improved.

By making the chassis (body) stiffer, now the suspension can do its intended job without having to compensate for the flex that was present before the addition of the stiffening plate.

People often ask whether adding our plate will make the car ride harsher (stiffer) and the answer is a resounding NO!! All our plate does is enhance the structures rigidity which improves the handling and overall ride quality of the vehicle.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Display Name @ Nov 5 2006, 09:40 AM) [snapback]344075[/snapback]</div>

Without any plate at all.. I suppose you could get stress fractures over time, but the existing plate prevents that bending.. but it doesn't prevent the wig wag.. "another Scientific term"!

Most cars have the full axle going all the way across that may be making a big difference.

But I'm not someone who has to fully understand it if it works.. otherwise I would never get into a car in the first place and get out on the freeway, or a jet plane, or even go to see a surgeon.

If you don't trust adding a plate thats stiffer and don't trust all the testimonies.. then don't buy it.

Or you asking for someone to help convince you, or are you trying to prove a point that it doesn't work against the reports of everyone else?

whats your point?

If you really don't believe in it.... are you trying to save us all or just be arguemenative?


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(KTPhil @ Nov 5 2006, 12:06 PM) [snapback]344136[/snapback]</div>

Then don't buy it.....I can't help you and its your loss.

No one needs to convince you of anything, you don't warrant that much attention. Its not going to hurt anybody but you if you don't buy.

Does it offend you that others can so easily believe in something without all the proof you need?
Does that drive you nuts?
Why does it bother you?

Buy the plate if you want it.. if you don't, then go buy something else and you can deem us all nuts and feel better about yourself.

I think enough time has been spent spoon feeding your fear.. its time for you to sh*&t or get off the pot.
You've been hanging out in the store long enough.. you may get arrested for shoplifting pr loitering?

Would you try it if it were free? are you really that chea..... I mean frugal?

 

Brian, I appreciate your hanging in here. I am not convinced, but you stand by your product and offer refunds and so this is in no way an affront to your business or integrity. I just want to make that clear. The following comments are to posters here, not you, Brian.

All the accusations and speculation about motives of doubters like me do nothing to prove the plate's effectiveness, and increase my level of doubt about the objectivity of those giving testimonials. There is no relevance to motives when all I am asking for is "how it works." The addition of insults implying lack of sophistication or driving skill also degrade the debate away from the actual topic.

But as long as some of you feel motive is important, let's explore this a moment. The continual changing of the subject to deflect the discussion away from the question is typically an indicator that those arguing for the plate's effectiveness in fact have no such objective evidence. All the doubters could be satisfied if you would refrain from attacks, direct and indirect, and just answer the questions. The motives behind subject avoidance and personal attacks seem more relevant than those who are doubting the plate. Yet they continue. I bet Brian wishes some his plate's supporters would stop posting, because he is probably savvy enough to see the harm they do when they exaggerate or attack.

So to keep this away from personal issues, and focus on the product itself, let's put all that petty, egotistical, ignorant baloney aside, okay?

Now back to Brian's explanation. I don't disagree with the general statements he makes about body/chassis stiffness, and how a stiff chassis is the key to effective control and resultant damping and predictability. What I am having a hard time seeing is the importance of that particular element in the overall stiffness of the body/frame. I look at what flexing is possible with no plate, in what direction and under what loads, and then consider the suspension misalignment that could result, then mitigate those effects with either the factory plate or the stiffer plate, and it just isn't evident to me yet that added stiffness in that member has an appreciable effect on wheel alignment.

The current plate must be deflecting significantly in order for a stiffer plate to have an effect. Is it torsional? Then the only improvement would be by changing the moment arm of the twist, but retaining the stock mounting bolts means no added leverage. So the change in movement could only be between the mounting bolts, which is a very short length for stiffness to have any leveraged effect. I see no movement possible in the stock plate laterally (i.e., side to side as mounted on the car, which is "lengthwise" for the plate itself. I see some slight potential for added stiffness to change the relative front to rear motion of each side of the "hump," but again retaining the stock mounting bolt location, minimizes the ability of stiffness to amount to significant reduction in body deflection at that point. I would also want to see the connection of that movement to suspension deflection.

Note that I am not specifically denying it, but rather stating that I don't see specifics posted that would convince me that flexibility in that particular location has any effect. To me the burden of proof is on the seller, not the potential buyer.

Contrast this with the common stiffening bars seen on '60s muscle cars. Front end distortion caused by stiffer springs transmitting more load on the front cross members, coupled with the higher torque of those big V8s, meant that contraction between shock towers caused camber changes that changed alignment measurable under cornering loads and with full power applied. The steering changes needed to maintain a track through a corner meant more work for the driver. Stiffening that area prevented camber change, and therefore the driver had one less variable to correct for when driving hard.

So I am looking to understand what suspension geometry is affected in the Prius by flex at the point of the plate. If someone had under body photos and could trace the flex through to the tire footprint then we'd have the story behind the idea and could accept that the plate does in fact affect alignment.

Again, I have no dispute with the general statements Brian is making about chassis stiffness being the goal if any modifications. But like with my door handle analogy, the link from plate to tire is not yet evident.

I am skeptical also because of some of the claims made by those who bought it about crosswind improvements, for example. For wind to flex the body at that particular point to such a degree that tire alignment is changed just borders on ridiculous. The car would virtually have to be made of rubber to flex that hard under wind loads! Brian has made no such claims, and rightly so. His case is hampered by claims of others that just don't pass the laugh test. I ignore those, and look forward to a discussion of the importance of that plate to the Prius specifically. If it is there, I will line up to buy, because I would like better handling (specifically, predictability in hard and bumpy corners), but like has been posted, the decision of where to invest for improvement (springs? sway bar? tires? gas shocks? etc) awaits objective analysis and comparison.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(KTPhil @ Nov 5 2006, 01:51 PM) [snapback]344180[/snapback]</div>

Wow.... your a hard sale.... I hope someone has the energy to explain all this to you. I've ran out.

If you need this type of explaination and understanding before you spend 150 bucks.. I pity your wife if she ever goes shopping with you!

It works!... Do you really expect a complicated breakdown of all issues and without that your calling it a distraction?

I don't know all the reasons... but it works....

I used to cross the 205 bridge between washington and oregon and it would have 40 - 50 mph gusts many times and it was a real challenge to stay in your lane.. the brace definately helped.

You won't believe anything except what your own understanding approves of and can grapple with.
I don't know if you really have that much fear, or are that cheap "or both" or are a control freak, but its obvious you have shut me out as an idiot that doesn't know what hes talking about... and you won't believe Brian because he sells them.. so who will you believe, your mother?

OK.... its time for someone else to get in here and try to say what I couldn't.. otherwise.. your on your own... you would think your making a decision to spend 10K or something.... whats the big deal?

Go ahead... jump in the waters fine.... you won't hit your head...but if your afraid to dive, you won't do it no matter how much it makes sense or how many people say its good....

You seem trapped by your own intelligence and held captive by your own fears. You know more that is good for you and you can't seem to escape.

Surely you don't have this much of a struggle every time you go to the auto parts store?

Anyway.. I know you don't want to talk to me.... so its Brians turn if he has the energy......

 

Any chance of a forum group purchase discount?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rest @ Nov 5 2006, 03:31 PM) [snapback]344217[/snapback]</div>

Its 20 dollars off now with the link at the top of the page.

I just wanted to say to "KTPhil". I mean no disrespect either. We have have different backgrounds and our minds work different ways. What one person excells in the other falls short and vice versa.... so we all need each other.

I too tend to be an analytical..... but too much just becomes torture to be able to constantly counter and with satisfaction answer all the different angles of possiblities of the whys and the hows.

There is a point I love to understand why things work and how, but there are other times when I realize the energy spent to understand outweighs the benifits of just enjoying it.

I can't build most things I use everyday.. cellphones, computer monitors ,processors, etc, but we still buy them because of the end result of thier presence gives us a better way of life.

Can you really build a computer processor and do you understand how its going to work before you buy it?

True its fun to understand if we can do it on our own study time, but its not fair to Brian to ask him to jump through hoops that will cost him money to satisfy our insatiable need to understand.

I have heard him explain before that it just works and all the reasons are not spelled out on paper nor do they have the endorsement of some well known engineer or physicist.

If it were your company, would you do what it took to satisfy my questions no matter how in depth I got and what it would cost you when I didn't need to for hundreds of others?

Have you ever had a lab or independent test company do anything of this nature for you and what did it cost, and what was the real benifit and improvement in sales afterwards?

Aren't there just a handful of customers that would be swayed with the expense of such a test?

Wouldn't it frustrate you that even though virtually all your hundreds of customers said it was wonderful and fully worth the money there were still folks who just refuse to believe no matter how many times you explained it because it didn't chime with thier understanding?

There is no burden of proof at all with the seller if it works for hundreds of others.

You are still afraid that until your understanding can see it, hundreds of others could be wrong and you would be right.

At some point we are no longer being inquisitive to make an honest purchase but rather can be in danger of becoming a pest without meaning to because we have unrealistic expectations of proof and validation before we will jump.

I don't know you, but I'm really trying to honor you as an intelligent human being along with the few others who feel the same way and are also impossible sells.

If you just buy the plate.. and you don't like it, sell it here on the forum for 10.00 less. Its on sale right now for 20.00 off anyway... you may could even make some money when the sale goes off.

But based on what I've heard Brian say so far, I really don't think he wants the torment of people buying it if they are that skeptical... they can cause more trouble, time,phone calls and hassles than 100 other normal customers.

Out of all the plates bought.. I don't recall one person that's wanted to return it or even resale it... maybe Brian can correct me on this.. but if so, the number is rediculously low.... and the plate has a much better record than most everything people buy in all the department stores around us everyday.

If you go back and reread your post, and if you have any objectivity at all, I think you will see that your trying to understand allright, but you will also see your demands and questions are being quite cruel and unrealistic to put such a burden on the seller.

Does anybody else force the other sellers of prius parts to jump through hoops so?

Why is Brian being so harrassed?.. Its because he's here and available and so an easy accessible target.

People who abuse him will force him to be like most other vendors and recess away from availablity and ruin it for the honest customers that just want answers and not a breakdown from an engineer in terms no one can understand anyway but them.

I have found if you try and appease people that can't be pleased, you only invite more torment.

 

I hope you don't mind Phil that I paraphrased some of your comments below:

The exact same points were brought up when I introduced the chassis stiffening plate for the Corvette a number of years ago. It wasn't until a select few purchased them and then found out first hand how much more neutral the car handled and improved the handling and the ride quality. Then a large number of SCCA racers started to purchase them and they too were convinced.

Obviously the Prius is not a Corvette and I make no claims that it can handle like one but there are substantial improvements that can be made and our stiffening plate goes a long way in helping the car ride and handle better.

The questions that you and others like you have asked asking for imperical evedince and specific numbers showing the exact changes that our stiffening plate makes are not unreasonable questions. The methodolgy to conduct such tests would be outrageously expensive and not financially feasable for a small company to do.

I can tell you that close to one thousand plates that we have sold not one has come back because the person was not happy with it or that it did not function as I have intended. This does not mean that there have not been people that did not feel a difference with it installed but that has been by FAR a VERY small number of people, probably less than 10.




<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(KTPhil @ Nov 5 2006, 04:51 PM) [snapback]344180[/snapback]</div>

 

"Killing me softly with his words" Winstrings, It's like you've known me my whole life. My wife definitly won't go shopping with me.

What a great line, I think this holds true for a lot of us.

KTPhil you expressed the way I feel, better than I ever could. I want to believe it works, but I need to see some sort of proof.

When you consider that the placebo effect can be as high as 30% in controlled test, that would mean in this case, up to 300 people could honestly, sincerely believe this plate works. Out of that 300, some would believe it emphatically and some would probably argue to the death.

I am sort of interested in how the Plate works but I am really more concerned if it works. To me, it's not important how it works or if Brian even knows how it works. To me, I mainly want to know if it works. I know a bumble bee can fly because I can measure it, time it, take photo's and see it. Where is this information for the Plate. Anything would be better than nothing.

There is a lot of ways to tell lies, one of them is by omission. If by my rough guess Brian has made $75,000 profit on these plates then maybe it's time for real measurable facts.

Ray

 

All I can say to you, windstrings, is that your viciousness in attacking me and bringing family members into the debate only goes to prove how unobjective some defenders of the plate have become, and makes me give even less weight to the testimonials. You have only convinced me that your opinions are meaningless and full of insecurity and defensiveness. It is shamefully unnecessary for you to make it personal.