BT Stiffening Plate Review

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ynono @ Nov 1 2006, 12:09 AM) [snapback]341745[/snapback]</div>

Wow! Have you let Cannondale and all those other bicycle manufacturers that use T6 aluminum in their frames know about this? This could explain all those aluminum frames flying apart during finishing sprints.

 

i didnt see the picture of the removed plate until the later posts referenced it, but after looking it over, what is the issue here? is the plate damaged??

i cant see any kind of damage on the plate at the mounting holes or anywhere else for that matter.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rest @ Oct 31 2006, 11:30 PM) [snapback]341750[/snapback]</div>

The statement that the prius is not a racecar makes me think you drive very conservatively and yes, you don't need it then, nor would you ever appreciate it since you probrably never drive over 55?

The higher the speed, the more sheer forces will be encountered in abrupt wind gust, turns, twists, or any quick movements.

The only people I see claiming placebo are the ones who don't have it, it always makes me think they are the analytical types that won't spend a dime on anything unless they have full understanding and a a perfect guarantee first.

If you honestly "have" the plate and are using it.. I'll listen to you, but if you don't... please don't try and throw your your negative fears in hopes someone will jump on your bandwagon and confirm them so you don't have to feel guilty about not spending a little money to try it.
I'm tired of trying to convince people who think they already know everything.

If you don't want it, don't buy it.. but don't slam those who do unless you too are willing to try it.

I get so tired of hearing this.... experts who are full of knowledge, but no good sense because they can't and won't speak from experience. Let me guess.. are you an enginneer or a doctor?

Some people are educated enough and surrounded my people of less education that they get the "placebo" effect of thinking they can figure anything out on paper without testing it first.
They get so confident in their intelligence that they become fools as they allow no tolerace for what they cannot see and what is beyond thier knowledge base and understanding.


I'm waiting to hear that you are not in this bunch I"m talking about and I hope you have enough integrity not to lie about it to save face..
If you own the plate and have used it, then please excuse my post and I won't haggle you anymore.

But if you don't have the plate..... It would be good not to post anything more negative until you go buy it, and test it and then report back to gain some credibility. Until that happens, you would only be talking out your other end, where all good opinions without knowledge come from.

Please excuse me if your work aquaintances or your family does not challenge your omniscient knowledge in this fashion and with more dignity and respect. You may not be used to it, so it may be a little hard for you the first time!

regardless of all the reasons anyone says it doesn't work "probrably engineers or the like", thats no good if it can't explain the reality of why it does for so many others. Just saying its a placebo effects is very condenscending and arrogant to those who feel they know different.

If you don't like being flamed, then don't ask for it with stupid statements that have no respect for anybody elses little voices that are not in your head.

Rather than the plate being a placebo, I'm starting to think all the reasons it don't work is a placebo.

This sounds like the weathermen... they all think they know why the weather did what it did....every day!....., but none can say for sure what it will do tomorrow. What genius's!

I have no problem with constructive critisizm, but every time someone gets out here and discounts what all those know who have the plate, when they don't have it themselves... thats pretty proud and arrogant to assume you can know more without the plate and not having it, than someone who has it, and its a slam asking for a flame from everyone who enjoys the plate.....

what an ego!

Maybe you've heard that before?

 

Well, I've gone ahead and ordered the BT plate and am eagerly awaiting delivery - so I'm very keen to see how this thread develops !!.

I had understood that the stock plate was too flexible, so a stiffer one was required.
Now it seems the stiffer one isn't flexible enough !

The comment that the BT plate could/might/possibly cause a crack to happen at the stress point on the frame is a bit worrying though.
But then again if the stock plate was sooo flexible wouldn't that also put a stress point on the frame - just somewhere else ??

Maybe we're talking extremes here...............

I have always treated my cars in the belief that if you look after them they'll look after you - and that's why I ordered Brian's plate.

 

Thanks Windstrings for your comments below. What amazes me is that we have sold a great number of our stiffening plates but there is only a handful that come on here and make the "placebo" comment and try to spread other negative things about it when most have NEVER even seen or tried it for themselves!!


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Nov 1 2006, 09:13 AM) [snapback]341791[/snapback]</div>

 

Hello Pinball. You should be receiving your BT Tech stiffening plate any day now. Once you install it and put it through its paces please report your impressions when you get a chance.

Regarding any worries you have about cracks in stress points please set your mind at ease. Like I mentioned in the previous post a steel chassis is stronger than aluminum so if there were forces present that would cause the plate to break I would be a lot more worried about the pending doom like falling off a cliff than the plate snapping!! This IMO is ridculous and if you noticed how the original poster kept bringing up the Tom's products is a bit self serving.

We have over 1,000 plates in use in the United States, Germany, England, Denmark, Austria, Sweeden and Japan driving on a LARGE variey of roads and conidtions. If you average 14,000 miles or more on each car (conservative) then we have over 14,000.000 miles without ANY ISSUES. My car alone has over 32k miles on it of VERY hard driving including some SCCA track time "playing around" and is perfect.

Enjoy your new BT Tech stiffening plate!!




<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(pinball @ Nov 1 2006, 09:39 AM) [snapback]341796[/snapback]</div>

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BT Tech @ Nov 1 2006, 10:38 AM) [snapback]341934[/snapback]</div>

They act like we spent this awesome amount of money and now we have to "fake" ourselves into believing it was worth it and get all our freinds into confirming it.

Well sorry, it takes more money than that for me.

I think some of the scoffers don't even own a prius, let alone a plate....the prius is new technology at a handsome price, if they won't spend a few bucks for a plate, they sure won't spend 30K for cutting edge technology thats not backed by Ford or Chevy...... well let me take that back.. Ford does back it... they just can't do as good a job!

To put all my cards on the table here, I bought two of your plates at once for both of my new cars.

Because I'm twice as stupid or gullible, or twice the money was no big deal for such a nice car?

I was expecting to be let down, but I figured as much money as I was spending on everything else, why not put money a quality product instead of a flimsy one... so I did and if you look at my old post, I was overwhelmingly delighted as I expected little and got alot!


Most of the people you will have trouble with are the ones that expect everything and don't want to give a dime for it!.... whe Welfare mentality!.... They deserve everything without a price and are wary about anything that claims very much thats not expensive because they have poor judgement and have been burn't in the past and are afraid to risk again!..... Too Bad So sad!... they miss out on so much in live thats free and inexpensive designed to bless those who have a little faith, while the others do without!

Heck, I probrably wouldn't have bought it either from the raving reviews of a handful of people buddies caught up in some clik, but lets get realy here...... how many? From how many walks of life?

Many active on the forum, many who rarely post and many who aren't even members at all.

If the plate would have been a disappointment, I would have either posted my protest or not posted at all, but I certainly wouldn't get out here and defend it.

I just hate seeing something get picked by ignorant people, that really deserves praise!

I guess if it happens in politics, it will happen here too!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Nov 1 2006, 08:57 AM) [snapback]341955[/snapback]</div>

I think you're assuming that everyone who won't get the BT assume that it's either placebo, or have no concrete facts to back up the claims.

I see it as a solution to a problem. The way I drive on my commute may not require it, but that doesn't mean that it wouldn't work for another owner.

 

Very true. Here is a little background.. I am generally involved with high performance cars involving the chassis tuning and engine PCM tuning and calibrations. When I first purchased my Prius I knew that I had to do something to improve its ride and handling. When I designed this plate I did it for myself and never had any intention of ever offering it to anyone else. When a friend of mine drove my car and compared it to his Prius he commented on the improvements in the way it drove and handled. He practically pleaded with me to make him one for his own Prius. This was a VERY VERY expensive undertaking at the time as I only made 4 proto-types and the cost for each was almost 5 times as expensive as what you can purchase one now for!

After my other local Prius buddies got theirs everyone mentioned that the improvements the stiffening plate made was so evident that I should seriousl consider offering them to other Prius enthusiasts. The rest is "how they say" history and that is where we are at today. I have made several minor design changes throughout the many production runs and it is with out doubt the single most cost effective, easy to install handling component one can do to improve their Prius.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Nov 1 2006, 01:57 PM) [snapback]341955[/snapback]</div>

That is correct Dave, there is none.. What the OP was concerned about was the minor indentations where the washers "bite" into the plate with our stainless steel bolts. This is perfectly normal and of no concern whatsoever.

I offered the OP a set of fresh brand new stainless bolts and washers so he could install them on his new 06.



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DaveinOlyWA @ Nov 1 2006, 07:02 AM) [snapback]341784[/snapback]</div>

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Nov 1 2006, 11:57 AM) [snapback]341955[/snapback]</div>

Well, I do have a friend with too much money who swears he could tell a difference in his home stereo sound (and "stereo" is way too modest of a word -- I'm pretty sure he was getting close to 6 figures) by replacing the power cord (wall cord) with one that has oxygen free wiring and gold plated lugs on it. I didn't want to ruin his day by explaing that there's just 12 ga copper inside the Romex in his house walls... Cognitive dissonance is a powerful thing.

I'm not gonna call this plate a "placebo", but from my experience with chassis mods to my other cars, I peronally have trouble seeing how it would help *that* much, given some of the claims for it.

When I added an "export" brace and had some subframe connectors welded on to my '65 Mustang, it was like night and day, but that was a 30 year old car, with a lot of slop in it. When I put a strut tower brace on my CRX, it did seem to track better on rough rodes, and seemed a bit crisper in the corners. With this plate, I have trouble seeing how it would do much of anything as it basically replaces a cross member that's already there, albeit admittedly made of stiffer material. Perhaps if it were larger, or more a X brace with relocated mouting holes in the "frame", then it seems like it could have a noticeable impact.

IMHO, the money would be better spent towards better tires or used to start saving up for a suspension upgrade, and the plate would be far down on the list after making those kinds of upgrades.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(aaf709 @ Nov 1 2006, 11:05 AM) [snapback]341967[/snapback]</div>

I totally agree... lets face it, if you drive very conservatively, you probrobly aren't using "alot" of the suspension you already paid for!... But its there is you ever need it and even while taking it easy, it provides subliminal smoothness and responsiveness that true may be barely noticable with moderate driving on excellent roads.

But some of us live on windy curvy roads and are constantly challenging the suspension. Some live where there are uneven road work and pot holes etc... .we all have different challenges, and some are retired! :lol:

How much money do folks spend on "allow wheels" for petes sake that are nothing but show and do nothing at all for the ride?

To each his own...


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BT Tech @ Nov 1 2006, 11:15 AM) [snapback]341973[/snapback]</div>

Should I guess he was a racecar driver?.. or at least someone who is in tune with his car because he has learned that listening to the cars "biorhythms" pays off and saves your bacon!

Many people drive thier cars like thier body... they either take very good care of it and take it easy and it has little need of attention and others who are in sports have to treat it special to make up for the abuse.
And some take it easy and still treat it special... even better!

Then of course.... their are those who do niether!...

 

I would not call my friend a "race car" driver but he does own a Corvette like myself and does drive it in SCCA Solo 1 sactioned events. In other words he DOES know how to drive a car and can often detect small changes I make to his race prepped car that I do!!




<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Nov 1 2006, 02:34 PM) [snapback]341992[/snapback]</div>

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Beryl Octet @ Nov 1 2006, 11:24 AM) [snapback]341988[/snapback]</div>

If you take the brace completely out of the prius, its a critical brace... the car is built to really need it.

I have no proof of this, but as I've mentioned in the past.. when a car is sloppy and wags its tail, the tires take the punishment as well as the rest of the suspension.
When its tightened up, all is better.

I can't prove it, but I wouldn't be surprised if tire life is extended with the plate.

Its true, tires are where the rubber meets the road and they do make a big difference, but they wear down and you have to start over and over... the plate just stays there unaffected by age and keeps on doing its thing.

In suspension, there are always several links to the chain.... keeping really good tires is only one of the links.

 

I just hate seeing something get picked by ignorant people, that really deserves praise!


This IMO is ridculous and if you noticed how the original poster kept bringing up the Tom's products is a bit self serving.


I like this. Just because I have a different opinion and I suspected the the problem with the bolts bite into the aluminum with the BT plate that Brian has pointed out that is not a problem. So now I'm ignorant and self-service because I mentioned another product. Tom's products, will let's get some facts straight Tom's products can be bought directly from Toyota who makes the Prius by the way. That Brian points out that suffers from poor design. Well all I have to say is maybe you should submit your design to Tokyo so it could be offered as an original equipment or add-on part.

As far as bicycle frames are concerned most of the parts are either in sheer or compression the only place on the frame that sees any torsion or twist is where the pedals go through the bottom of the frame and for failures in this area go ask Lance Armstrong how many bikes he's had to change because of cracks in this part of the frame

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ynono @ Nov 1 2006, 12:11 PM) [snapback]342025[/snapback]</div>

I considered Toms brace when I made my purchase, but its quite a bit more money and "very" much harder to install. Its quite complex for the total kit and IMO gets in the way for future repairs etc.
I'm always concerned about complex modifications that may be trouble to maintain or become a warranty issue due to thier invasiveness into the system should Toyota need to make repairs, I don't know if they will warrant issues relating to Toms Brace if they didn't install it.

Brians plate is so simple its a non issue and Toyota would probrably try to steal the design and modify it rather than pay him for it. It may be hard for Brian to patent it.. I don't know.

I keep waiting for Toyota to wake up and modify it theirself?

 

well maybe we should start a thread on who bought one, used it, then bought another one knowing full well how the first one worked.


well me be one. i bought one for my 04 and am buying one for my 06... was hoping to salvage my old one...but that fell thru.

but after knowing the changes the BT plate made to my 04, i have willingly put down another $165 to get another one for my 06.

now, considering that its a part that does not show, then its gotta be a question of preference. i do feel a difference. now will it make a difference if i should need to perform evasive maneuvers to a avoid a collision??

well, in the time i had the BT plate, (about 14-17 of the 25 months of the time i owned the car. dont remember the exact time i got it but was one of the first when it was offfered here at Priuschat) i actually had a few situations that i needed stability, now dont ask if having the plate on helped because i simply dont know. i did total the 04, but in that accident, i really had no opportunity to avoid the glancing collision that ultimately totaled the vehicle.

so, its been asked before and i believe its about 70-10% with 20% no opinion, in favor of the purchase of this plate from people who actually bought the plate not bad i think. even the best of products are lucky to hit an acceptance rate that high.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DavidTO @ Oct 31 2006, 10:26 PM) [snapback]341763[/snapback]</div>

Me too. B)

 

Me 3! I have posted many times before that I was ready to trade in my 06 Prius until i tried the bt plate and it absolutely changed the way my car handles. For those that discount its value or say it is a placebo are only fooling themselves. If people want to listen to the small minority of people that do not believe that this products works they are doing people a real disservice. The 150.00 they charge for this part it is an absolute bargain.

Ken Stewart
2006 Prius #6







<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(subarutoo @ Nov 1 2006, 04:51 PM) [snapback]342139[/snapback]</div>

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(RonH @ Nov 1 2006, 02:25 AM) [snapback]341770[/snapback]</div>

Actually, I had a Cannondale aluminum frame develop hairline stress cracks at the headset...in any case, I think the issue here is larger than just the material used for the plate itself.

Another question: the instructions with my brace said to torque the bolts to 17ft/lbs...but Brian recently said his is torqued to 20, and someone else here mentioned 24ft/lbs as the correct torque...can someone clarify, please.

FYI, I love what the brace has done for my car, for sure, but my personal jury is still out on the longevity issue.

 

I read this entire thread with great interest, and thought I would offer a few thoughts. No, I don't have a plate, so feel free to totally disregard everything I say from this point on. I do plan to add one, though.

1. It almost certainly does improve vehicle dynamics. Toyota has already recognized the location as a focal point for unwanted chassis flex and have tried to reduce it with their own brace. The concept, therefore, is completely sound. If Toyota didn't recognize the need to reduce flex in that area, Toyota would have left off the brace entirely and saved $5 per car (hey, times 200,000 cars, that's a million dollars of lost profit if it wasn't needed, not counting the assembly line costs). The question is how incrementally large (or small) the improvement is, since the BT plate obviously adds more stiffness than the stock brace.

2. Stiffer chassis makes the suspension work better. The holy grail of modern performance chassis design is chassis stiffness. Look at the effort BMW, Porsche, Mercedes, Jaguar, etc. go through to stiffen their chassis (and then publish that improvement). The reason is that chassis flexing changes suspension geometry under load...and that does all sorts of nasty things to handling characteristics. There are no situations where more chassis flex is desirable - even cars with "cushy" rides have stiff chassis with soft suspension attached. Many people add strut tower braces and other stiffeners to their cars, and BMW added them from the factory to the Z4 roadster. The question becomes how much effect the BT plate has here, but any improvement will help.

3. The Prius is not and never will be a "sports car." It simply wasn't designed to be one and if that's what you wanted, you bought the wrong ride. There are lots of reasons, starting with a 4500 RPM redline in the engine, rear drum brakes, torsion bar rear suspension, missing anti-sway bars, wrong camber for tires, terrible weight distribution, no seat side bolsters, the wrong gearbox, and of course the Atkinson cycle engine. Sure, you could improve handling with the plate, with new coilovers, and other tweaks, but its never gonna be a racecar. Heck, it won't even be a Miata. But again, so what?

Just remember two key things:

Its more fun to drive a slow car fast than it is to drive a fast car slow.... and .... you can't ever make a pig into a racehorse. Its not possible and it annoys the pig. But with enough time and patience, you can make a mighty fast pig!