Do we owe the people of Iraq an apology?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Oct 31 2006, 01:31 PM) [snapback]341364[/snapback]</div>

Two things we can agree on.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Beryl Octet @ Oct 31 2006, 01:34 PM) [snapback]341367[/snapback]</div>

A very smart person once said the only problem with France are the French :lol:

 

Yes, but not for the overthrow of Saddam. Sure, our invasion was based on trumped-up, fabricated, and deceptive reasons. On the merits of or original arguments (that Saddam had WMDs he was going to give to terrorists), our invasion was utterly unjustified. He had no WMDs, nor did he have ties to terrorists even if he did.

Once it became clear there weren't any WMDs to be found, we switched the mission goals to promoting freedom and democracy, protecting Iraqis from torture, and overthrowing a murderous dictator who kills his own people. But if that were all the justification we needed, why haven't we done the same in Darfur? Or Nigeria? Or Congo? Or ten other countries living under murderous dictators?

No, Saddam was not a great guy. And yes, our "moral" justification is inconsistenly applied in our choice of regimes to change. But in my opinion what we really should be apologizing for (and what we should be ashamed of) is what we didn't do after the invasion. We should have gone in with 400,000 troops and actually stabilized the country. Then, we should have had people on every street corner hiring the suddenly unemployed Iraqis to clean up and rebuild instead of throwing billions at companies like Halliburton while we let ordinary citizens stew in their newfound freetime and poverty.

How hard would it have been to hire 100,000 people every day to sweep, clean, fix potholes, dig ditches, plaster homes, put up power poles, repaint, etc. in each major city? We should have immediately put the people back to work fixing their own country. This would have encouraged a sense of buy-in by the people, kept them busy doing something other than hating us and making IEDs, and actually cleaned up the country. Kinda like a modern-day Iraqi WPA/TVA/CCC. Give the people somthing, because when you have nothing, you have nothing to loose.

We can argue all day about the merits of going in, but what we should be ashamed of is what we did (or didn't do) once we got there. Even though we had terribly suspect reasons for starting this war, we really did have a chance to make things better...and we completey blew it. I don't know what idiots thought we would be greeted with flowers, but we were not initially greeted with IEDs and RPGs either. The current mess is ALL our fault.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bryanmsi @ Oct 31 2006, 01:49 PM) [snapback]341382[/snapback]</div>

Agree. We should have done it right from the get-go. We still can.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Oct 31 2006, 01:57 PM) [snapback]341390[/snapback]</div>

Pass me some of what you're smoking, it must be the good stuff.

 

Ugh; these "debates" always seem to come down to irresistable force vs. immovable object.

Owe an apology? Please. We've all -- everyone -- been guilty of committing heinous acts of violence. We've all thought ourselves irrevocably in the right, only to find out differently later. We've all fallen under the spell of loquatious (and somewhat less so) public officials and , as a consequence, have been manipulated for the gain of a few.

We're all human, and we're all fallable, and we're all a lot more alike than some of the "us vs. them" pundits would like us all to believe.

I hate to break the news, but (believe it or not) the world doesn't revolve around the U.S. and our version of Western Culture...please remember that many of the things that seem so prevalent here are actually in the minority.

That doesn't mean that we need to "modernize the Iraqi thought processes" (dbermanmd, I *love* you for writing this phrase; in one sentence you succeed in undermining your own credibility completely...and, I get a chuckle every time *I* type it). Nor does it mean that we need to spread the gospel of Democracy (the juxtaposition of these two words is purely intentional).

It means that we need to learn how to be better neighbors.

And don't say, "well, they started it." That may be true, but it is still possible to forgive. When you forgive, you accept, and when you accept, you can understand.

Or we can just bomb the hell out of them in the name of Truth, Justice, and the American Way.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ Oct 31 2006, 02:12 PM) [snapback]341406[/snapback]</div>

Better neighbors to whom? To North Korea? To Iran? To a 1930's Germany? We can be a good neighbor to Canada because they treat their own people well and their neighbors well. They are not developing nuclear weapons. There are not mass graves filled with innocent Canadians. They have a free press, a fair judiciary, etc. We should not be a good neighbor to those that seek WMD's, who oppress and enslave their people. It is simple - any "fear" society should not be a friend of ours.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jared2 @ Oct 31 2006, 02:45 PM) [snapback]341443[/snapback]</div>

You dont have to agree all the time to be a good neighbor do you? And who is in power today in Canada? And your opinions remain your opinions as to the UN and the War on Terror. Right or wrong, the US will always protect Canada - which remains free to do what it wants to.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Oct 31 2006, 02:34 PM) [snapback]341428[/snapback]</div>

But *we* as a society -- and those who lead us -- depend most on fear as a means of control...don't we?

It's everywhere...at work, at school, even in meaningless things like our advertising.

Gosh, just read your own quote...dripping with fear, isn't it? In my opinion, your goal seems to make everyone as fearful as you now seem to be.

Unfortunately, fear closes down rational thought, and makes it difficult if not impossible to see the world with any degree of clarity.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ Oct 31 2006, 03:11 PM) [snapback]341462[/snapback]</div>

No we dont.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jared2 @ Oct 31 2006, 02:59 PM) [snapback]341455[/snapback]</div>

Choose one:

If Canada treated its citizens the way Saddam treated his, Canadians would be flowing over the border like Mexicans, or

What would be wrong with the end of Canada more land for the US to build on or clearcut, or

Canadians up to recently were able to protect themselves, or

We thought of transposing Iraq with Canada, but we opted for the least of two evils, or

Maybe we will anyhow, Canada has lots of oil too, or

Canada would have been easier, they could not possibily have as many suicide bombers Iraq does, or ...

These are just JOKES - humor.

 

Barked the doberman:

As many as the US allowed in Uganda, Rwanda, Darfur, Cambodia, USSR, Germany, Ethiopia, Central and S. America, Phillipines ... ... ...

Earth to the doberman: the US could not give a s**t about mass murder and atrocities in other countries, unless it provides an excuse to further US geo-political interests. I'll give you three guesses who supported Shussein during his attempts at kurdish exteminations, and turned a blind eye to his KGB style repression of the shiites in Iraq until he invaded Kuwait. Starts with "U", ends with an "s."

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(EricGo @ Oct 31 2006, 03:59 PM) [snapback]341518[/snapback]</div>

I am assuming that since we are now responsible for each and every human on planet earth we should start drawing up a list of to do's? Let me start, feel free to add on...

1. Destroy the current NoKo leadership which has starved over one million of its citizens to death as it wastes valuable resources to develop and build nuclear weapons
2. Destroy the current Iran leasership while it pursues weapons of mass destruction and has repeatedly and in public on the record has threatened to use them!!! We must also mention its subjugation of its populace, its violations of human rights and its enslavement of women.
3. Increase troop levels in Iraq - stop pulling punches - and just do it.
4. Destroy the terror infrastructure in the Palestinian terrortories including Islamic jihad and Hamas
5. Destroy the current leadership structure of Syria - a country that enslaves its people, supports the subjugation of the Lebanese people directly and through its support of Hezbullah
6. Remove ourselves from the UN if real reform is not achieved. It has proven itself a TOTALLY WORTHLESS organization that has not carried through with its primary objectives. Countires possessing nuclear weapons continue to multiply, genocides still are going strong in Darfur and other places, the money for oil scandal, etc, etc. Blow it up and start over again - or we just pick up our toys (ie. money) and leave.

I will stop there since that will keep us busy for the next few months - your turn to plan our 2007 schedule.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jared2 @ Oct 31 2006, 04:09 PM) [snapback]341531[/snapback]</div>

I'm curious how they ended up driving a Prius, though, if they even have one. Or is it just a case of knowing that they'd find good trolling in these waters?

 

apology? after they're all dead. NO one to apology to.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ditto @ Nov 1 2006, 11:01 AM) [snapback]341902[/snapback]</div>

Are you referring to those hundreds of thousands of corpses we have pulled from the mass graves there? Or are you referring to the 100,000+ Kurds he used WMD's on? Or perhaps the Kuwaiti's he slaughtered when he invaded Kuwait? Perhaps you are referring to the Marshland Arabs? Or maybe those we cannot identify that he tortured, raped and shredded?

Let me know which of the above you are referring to if not all of the above.

 

Here's your apology:
Kerry apologizes for 'misinterpreted words'

My mistake, wrong apology.

"A top Democratic strategist said Tuesday that Kerry 'already cost us one election' and should 'keep his mouth shut.'" Which team is Kerry on again?

Then again, at least he had the guts to apologize. Still waiting for Bush to do likewise. But of course, since it's "Mission Accomplished", then Bush has nothing to apologize for, right?! :blink:

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Oct 31 2006, 03:19 PM) [snapback]341464[/snapback]</div>

Such an effusive reply! So tightly reasoned; so well articulated.

[wistful sigh] I'm under the spell of your eloquence.