Computer Assist battery

AND cleaned the goop out of all the connections.

 

The "don't want to tinker, just want it to definitely work" option is an old beater Windows laptop and Techstream, which will tell you everything the dealer could, because it's the software they use. A lot of threads here describe that route.

There are various OBD phone apps and such that allow you to add vehicle-specific definitions, and I'm sure those exist for Gen 2 Prii, but that route requires you to do more studying. Some of those should definitely be able to get you all the trouble codes the car has logged, and some may also be able to read some of the same live data you could get with Techstream.

 

Here's buyer's guide: Hybrid battery diagnostic and repair tool for Toyota and Lexus

 

Do you have test data or quotable sources to support your statements? Otherwise they are just your opinions.

I did a little experiment today. Took a 12V top post battery and a lead battery terminal. Cleaned the post and the terminal before fitting it and tightened it. Attached a resistive load tester and applied a 200A load while measuring voltage drop from the terminal to the post. Removed the terminal then applied a layer of Motorcraft XG-12 electrical grease to the post and inside of the terminal. Dropped it back on and tightened it. Applied 200A again and measured the voltage drop. Repeated the entire test using a stamped/plated brass (asian style) terminal.

After doing both tests the results were similar. Adding this grease between the post and the terminal increased the measured voltage drop by 0.1 millivolts at 200Amps. Lead terminal- 0.9mV without grease, 1.0mV with. Stamped terminal- 1.6mV without grease, 1.7mV with. Can't say as I find that to be significant.

 

By tightening you squeeze just about all the grease out between the mating surfaces.

 

@shonna - If you go with Techstream, you'll need to buy a "mini-vci" cable (20usd). If you don't have a windows device you can emulate it..

 

Did that grease say anywhere on the label that it is "di-electric" grease ?
And what are the suggested uses for it ??

There are all kinds of "electrical" grease; some are conductive and some are not.
Anything labeled "dielectric" is not. Simple fact. No "tests" required.

Have YOU looked up the characteristics and uses for dielectric grease ?
If not, why not ??

 

It's the same grease covered in post #12.

The tube does not say 'dielectric' anywhere. On the other hand, its product overview sheet gives it a "dielectric breakdown voltage" of 11.2 kilovolts.

I do not see any statement of the layer thickness needed to achieve that result.

 

That is trying to tell you that at any voltage below 11,200,000 volts, it is an insulator.
But some people just aren't getting it.
I give up.

 

That would be 11.2 megavolts, but anyway.

And yet, it is the same grease that mr_guy_mann applied to a twelve volt battery post (that's a lot less than 11.2 kilovolts, I think), and drew 200 amps through, with a 0.1 millivolt difference.

Which is essentially the same test as in the kit in post #10, using the same grease (but only drawing 1 amp in that case).

So it is something curious, for sure. It is a grease with an 11.2 kV dielectric breakdown voltage, that you can smear on electrical connector terminals, and it doesn't stop, or even interfere, with current passing through the terminals.

I understand why that seems at odds with your philosophy. However, that seems to be telling us that there are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

What the product spec probably means is that there is some layer thickness of the stuff that will withstand 11.2 kV. The spec doesn't say what that thickness is.

It seems like what you get between contacts of an electrical connector ... is not that thickness, then.

 

Redline CV2 Synthetic Moly.

Thats all over both my battery's and in all the electrical connectors on my car and in my guns to for that matter. Worlds best lubricant and anti oxidizer.

Red Line Synthetic Oil. CV-2 Grease

 

So? Yes dielectric grease is an "insulator", but any clean and mechanically secure connection pushes the grease out of the points of contact and the metal to metal conducts electricity just fine. There is nothing to "get". I have used this grease (and other dielectric compounds) for decades on connections without a problem or "measurable" affect on any circuit- from high amp battery connections to computer sensors or data network (micro-amps).

I look at the product description for the Ford XG-12 on the web, it states:

• Lubricates and protects electrical connectors
• Provides a non-corrosive film for electrical switches and contacts
• Protects connector metals from oxidation and corrosion
• Formulated for automotive use
• Use according to owner guide recommendations
  

which sounds very similar to Nyogel 760 (don't know if it is the same or not):

" Applications range from LV electrical connections in control panels for gas and wind turbines to MV (up to 50KV) circuit breaker contacts. Without lubricant protection, contact metals are extremely susceptible to corrosion, resulting in loss of connectivity over time. NyoGel 760G seals electrical contacts from oxygen, moisture, aggressive gasses and other hostile elements. In applications where the connector is exposed to the elements, filling the connector housing with grease before mating is also recommended. The grease acts as a back-up environmental seal. A thin film of lubricant also reduces mating/insertion force by as much as 80 percent, ensuring solid connections and efficient assembly. Metal contacts are subject to “fretting corrosion” — abrasion resulting from low amplitude vibration caused by motion or thermal expansion and contraction. Abraded metal can build up and break the connection. NyoGel 760G minimizes metal-to-metal wear, protecting the contact from fretting corrosion."

GM specifically calls for coating some connectors with Nyogel before assembly - such as service campaign #10085D , where it is used on airbag connectors.

Again- if you have evidence that proves why it shouldn't be used like this, then present it.

 

This is pointless and tiresome.
It is not a philosophy.

If you really want to, you can design a "test" that will seemingly disprove any fact that you want.

Just stop, please.

Dielectric grease should NOT be applied to conducting surfaces. Period.

ANY "clean and mechanically secure connection" does no such thing.

GM specifically does NOT call for using that on all connections because all connectors are not of the same design.

Dielectric grease should NOT be blindly applied to any random type of connection because it is not appropriate for many of them.

Want proof ? Go find it yourself.

 

Out of all of Sam's blustering in this thread, this was one bit that interested me ... certainly not on the strength of Sam's track record around here, but because he's highlighting a difference that seems like it could matter. Maybe it's one thing to show the grease is no problem on the terminals with pressure-concentrating 'bites', but what if it's a big problem on smooth flat ones? At least it would be easy to test.

The terminals that Toyota selects pretty much do all have ridges or dimples formed in (or both!), designed to mate with that concentrated high-pressure cleaning action.



That by itself would be enough to lay the concerns in this thread to rest, since after all it is about connectors in a Toyota car. But couldn't Sam still be on to something regarding ridge-less, dimple-less, flat kinds of terminals? What if they don't displace the grease effectively and end up with conductivity ruined? Worth a check, anyway.

First there's the problem of finding some. The ridgey, dimpley Toyota terminals won't do. But Anderson PowerPoles ... those are pretty darned smooth and flat where they touch. (They don't have male and female flavors; the connectors are symmetrical, and the terminals just ride over each other.)




So I crimped a couple on short lengths of bare 12 AWG and got out the ol' microohmmeter.





At one amp through the contacts, getting 0.322 milliohms (no grease yet, nothing on 'em). Right, 0.000322 Ω.

Bump the current to ten amps, still showing around 0.32 mΩ.


Ok, now to mess both those flat smooth terminals up with insane amounts of XG-12, the grease with the eleven thousand volt dielectric breakdown voltage!


Alert the media: there has been an increase in contact resistance ... from about 0.32 mΩ to more like 0.34:



So there's been an increase here of about 0.00002 Ω. If you increased the current all the way to the 200 amps mr_guy_mann used in post #25, that would have made a difference of 0.004 volts. (That's more than he saw, but he was testing beefy battery post clamps. 200 amps would in fact be way beyond the current rating of these Anderson terminals anyway.)

After that, I cleaned both terminals off again, scrubbing first with dry swabs, then with 91% isopropanol.

The resistance went down again, about halfway to the earlier value.






So, after all that, how badly did the 11.2 kV dielectric breakdown strength grease ruin the conductivity of this connection?

Well, the resistance did go up ... by 0.00002 Ω, from 0.00032 to 0.00034.

Is there a spec for acceptable resistance of Anderson PP15/45 connections? Why yes, there is.



So the measured resistance here was well within the spec, grease or no grease. Even on these flat smooth terminals, the addition of XG-12 did not come anywhere near making an impaired connection.

 

I just took about 10 seconds of my time and did a Google search for "dielectric grease".
This is what came up right after the ads:

"Dielectric grease

Dielectric grease, or tune-up grease, is a silicone-based grease that repels moisture and protects electrical connections against corrosion. ... The grease does not conduct electricity, so it shouldn't be applied directly to the mating surfaces (pins and sockets) of an electrical connection.Feb 26, 2015 "

Some of you can piss away another chunk of your limited time on this earth continuing to argue about it but this will be my last post in this thread. I have a LOT better things to do.

 

Comes up right after the ads, but who is speaking? Andrew Gardner, web blogger for Blain's Farm and Fleet. Maybe better to go to the source, the manufacturer, besides why would Loctite and Permatex sell dielectric grease for metal to metal contact.

Permatex manufacturer product page.

Permatex® Dielectric Tune-Up Grease – Permatex

Used properly, not globbed on, a thin film is all that's required.

Protects electrical connections and wiring from salt, dirt and corrosion. Extends the life of bulb sockets. Prevents voltage leakage around any electrical connection. Also prevents spark plugs from fusing to boots. Required for modern high energy ignition systems.

Automobile: Suggested Applications: All electrical connections, spark plug boots, trailer hitch wiring
Motorcycle: Suggested Applications: All electrical connections, spark plug wires
Heavy Duty: Suggested Applications: All electrical connections, spark plug wires
Marine: Suggested Applications: All electrical connections, spark plug wires, trailer hitch wiring

Directions for Connectors:

1. Make sure ignition system is off.
2. Clean surface with Permatex® Contact Cleaner.
3. Coat both parts of terminal contact with Dielectric Grease.
4. Reassemble, maintaining metal-to-metal contact.

LOCTITE® LB 8423 is a silicone dielectric compound that facilitates and improves tune-ups. Typical applications include spark plug boots, distributor cap nipples, battery terminals, ignition coil connectors, and trailer electrical connectors.

 

Why? What would happen? Oh, nothing would. Why do I say that?
Maybe because of my experiences.
Maybe because of data from several tests performed.
Maybe because of product descriptions from the dielectric manufacturers. (Nyogel 760g meets spec for the TSB dielectric for GM, Ford, Fiat-Chrysler, as well as Toyota and Freightliner/Diamler).

MAYBE I just looked at some information from the OEM - TSB's. Ford# 10-20-6, SSM 47784, 09-22-15, 06-9-3, 20-2374, SSM 46857; FCA# safety recall R61; GM# 10-08-45-001E, 08-05-22-009, 4583779, 10085D (prior), etc..
All theme and variation on : inspect and repair connector as needed- apply (approved) dielectric lubricant to connector terminals to prevent corrosion and fretting damage. These are male/female pin or spade terminals, or ring (on stud) terminals in: airbag, ABS-stabilty control, engine and transmission control, lane departure warning- all critical safety systems where the manufacturer says to use (this) dielectric grease on the connections.

One possible exception to my thought that dielectric can be used "anywhere" on automotive applications would be oxygen or air-fuel sensors- some designs use the signal wire as the source for reference air. Use dielectric grease in the connector would block the reference air and cause the sensor to not work correctly.

I did. This one is my favorite- just for you Sam.

________________________________________________________________________________________
#09-06-03-004E: Intermittent No Crank/No Start, No Module Communication, MIL, Warning Lights, Vehicle Messages or DTCs Set by Various Control Modules - Diagnosing and Repairing Fretting Corrosion (Disconnect Affected Connector and Apply Dielectric Lubricant) - (Nov 28, 2011)

Subject:Intermittent No Crank/No Start, No Module Communication, MIL, Warning Lights, Vehicle Messages or DTCs Set by Various Control Modules – Diagnosing and Repairing Fretting Corrosion (Disconnect Affected Connector and Apply Dielectric Lubricant)

Models:2013 and Prior GM Passenger Cars and Trucks

Attention: This repair can be applied to ANY electrical connection including, but not limited to: lighting, body electrical, in-line connections, powertrain control sensors, etc. DO NOT over apply lubricant to the point where it prevents the full engagement of sealed connectors. A light coating on the terminal surfaces is sufficient to correct the condition.
This bulletin is being revised to add the 2012-2013 model years, update the information and remove the Warranty Information for Saab Models. Please discard Corporate Bulletin Number
09-06-03-004D (Section 06 – Engine/Propulsion System).


Condition
Some customers may comment on any of the following conditions:

•An intermittent no crank/no start
•Intermittent malfunction indicator lamp (MIL) illumination
•Intermittent service lamp illumination
•Intermittent service message or messages being displayed
The technician may determine that he is unable to duplicate the intermittent condition.

Cause
This condition may be caused by a buildup of non-conductive insulating oxidized debris known as fretting corrosion, occurring between two electrical contact surfaces of the connection or connector. This may be caused by any of the following conditions:

•Vibration
•Thermal cycling
•Poor connection/terminal retention
•Micro motion
•A connector, component or wiring harness not properly secured resulting in movement
On low current signal circuits this condition may cause high resistance, resulting in intermittent connections.

On high current power circuits this condition may cause permanent increases in the resistance and may cause a device to become inoperative.

Representative List of Control Modules and Components

The following is only a representative list of control modules and components that may be affected by this connection or connector condition and DOES NOT include every possible module or component for every vehicle.
•Blower Control Module
•Body Control Module (BCM)
•Communication Interface Module (CIM)
•Cooling Fan Control Module
•Electronic Brake Control Module (EBCM)
•Electronic Brake and Traction Control Module (EBTCM)
•Electronic Suspension Control (ESC) Module
•Engine Control Module (ECM)
•Heating, Ventilation and Air Conditioning (HVAC) Control Module
•HVAC Actuator
•Inflatable Restraint Sensing and Diagnostic Module (SDM)
-Any AIR BAG module
-Seat Belt Lap Anchor Pretensioner
-Seat Belt Retractor Pretensioner
-An SIR system connection or connector condition resulting in the following DTCs being set: B0015, B0016, B0019, B0020, B0022, or B0023
•Powertrain Control Module (PCM)
•Remote Control Door Lock Receiver (RCDLR)
•Transmission Control Module (TCM)
________________________________________________________________________________________

Yes Sam, GM does call for that.

You have an opinion, a personal belief that persists despite any facts or evidence that is supplied which contradicts you. Please, in the future when you post repair advice be sure to state that your comments are personal opinion, contradict recommendations from several OEMs, and may not be factually correct.

thank you Mr Opinion, have a nice day.

(I BELIEVE !!)

 

STUFF IT.
The facts are the facts.
Dielectric grease is NOT conductive.
What you can do with it is not the same as what you should do with it.

I quit.
Really.

 

Here's a case study of the Nye 760G for an automaker where connections to an ECU were corroding and leading to recalls. An application not so unlike the one that kicked off this thread.

That document also comes right out and calls the 760G a dielectric grease. "Universal standard for dielectric grease specified by leading OEM’s".

I bet it's easy to find other quotes saying the same thing. How about this one:

That one was easy to find because it was me, right here on PriusChat ten years ago. In other words, back then (and up until much more recently, even), I also, like Sam, was advising people not to put "dielectric" grease on electrical terminals because I thought it would insulate them. It is an idea that just seems right intuitively, like a kind of truth you can recognize just by thinking about it. I can understand why Sam believes it.

So what happened to me? Well, it was a combination of seeing lots of posts by others who had used it and their circuits didn't go dark (were they all lying about it?), and others more directly citing evidence that I was mistaken, and me finding more such evidence myself confirming it, and more recently direct experiment confirming the same thing. Eventually it just was time to let go of that belief because reality wasn't budging, and make room in my head for the fact that it's not that simple.

I'll leave it up to the bard whether the line needs a rewrite. But the whole thing calls to mind a story about Robert Wood, the physicist, giving an answer to a toast, "to physics and metaphysics!"

—as told by Carl Sagan​

In Sam, we see someone who really believes that as long as he's convinced himself of something by thinking about it, there just isn't any need to bother with either a library or a laboratory to find out if reality agrees.

Any of that boring compare-to-reality jazz is for other people to do, not for Sam.

This is not a new thing with Sam ... other people are to bring evidence:

But not Sam, where a certain career history removes any need for checking with reality.

Apparently if you're an EET long enough, you recognize truth just by thinking about it, like the metaphysicist in the Robert Wood story.

Of course it doesn't work that way even for people more knowledgeable than Sam. None of us gets a free pass from the work of comparing reality to what we happen to think.