Featured Best answer I've seen yet from Toyota about going full EV

.... sometimes it takes a while to really know your audience.

Sometimes I DO feel like one is reading calculus thorems here - rather than straightforward / specific thought.
.

 

= tesla

 

Some early hybrids had a loop from the air conditioner to directly cool the battery.

The real advantage of a liquid system is in the fact that water is so much better at gaining and shedding heat than air. To get the same amount of cooling with air, you need to move a lot more of it over the battery than with water, which leads to bigger blower motors and increased bulk from the wider air passages.

Less complexity, but batteries that are heat tolerant enough to work with air cooling cost more than those used with liquid cooling.

Since you want to ignore Tesla, my bet is with VW. They have a dedicated BEV platform already going into production with multiple models already planned for, with a large investment being made into expanded production for those models. Ford is also licensing it for the European market. Their only potential issue will be in battery supplies, though they have designed flexibility into the platform for accepting multiple battery types.

 

Some of us are wise enough not to pretend they are the same.

In other words, lumping all automakers into a single category is not constructive.

 

You forgot, “know your audience”.

 

Perhaps you should share that wisdom instead of playing cryptic sensei, and less people would brush off what you are trying to say.

 

I have already, several times.

People have a way of conveniently forgetting when each new thread is started. The nature of these exchanges is for the RESET button to be pressed, preventing conclusions from being drawn. That's how they keep their favorite discussion topics alive. Ironically, some of the same individuals complain when I repeat myself.

In other words, I don't take the bait.

My suggestion to you is to ask a specific question instead.

 

This is very true, not all automakers are the same. Tesla is the newest kid on the block, while Toyota is well established and I believe sells more vehicles worldwide than anyone.
From 2012-2017 they are also the only automaker whose fleet average C02 emissions have increased, rather than decreased.

So it is glaringly obvious they aren't "the same".

However, they do both sell personal vehicles (as well as other things).
And the market as a whole, is starting to see the need for EVs.
Many automakers have, in one way or another announced their goals in terms of EVs.

I don't think it is unreasonable to compare the solutions from different auto companies. Nor the speed each is moving at.

 

You've already ignored/missed a specific question about high-volume definition.

But which legacy automaker will be first to a high-volume, profitable plug in, and why?

 

Why do you ask the same question again, knowing I have already answered it several times?

 

Nissan/Renault/Mitsubishi aliance appears already to have profitable plug-ins.
Nissan-Renault CEO Says Company Makes Money On EVs | GM Authority
Of course we learned earlier this year that Nissan is unprofitable on most of their gasoline using vehicles with steep drops in profitability and changes at CEO.

Nissan LEAF Is World's # 1 Selling EV, But #2 Might Surprise You
At over 360,000 cumulative units the leaf qualifies as high volume for most of it but it is much less per year than the tesla model 3. Your definition and mileage may vary.

Profitability of the leaf this year and in the future is in doubt for the group though. Competition has heated up.

First to profitability in plug-ins Nissan/Renault/Mitsubishi, second Tesla, who will be next?

I expect Tesla, GM, VW Group, BMW, Kia/Hyundai, and Mercedes to all be profitable in plug-ins by 2025 given the current plans.

 

Oh Myyyy,
How does one put a positive spin on the above toyota fact?
In this thread about toyota getting on the EV / Clean-Sustainable Energy bandwagon.

Sorry if this adds to your apparent 'I vs. Them' theme/feelings.

How about a slightly off topic "specific question", there, john?
How do you justify having this statement in your 'signature'?
29,573 miles so far, overall average: 105.7 MPG

The Prime is a dual energy source vehicle.
Stating only MPG and ignoring the electron usage/costs is kind of misleading, no?

But when I state in my signature '∞ MPG' , I am telling the truth, no?

 

Oh oh, I know how toyota could fix this problem!!!

Offer some BEV's in their fleet.

Only they are so far behind the curve and appear to be digging in their heels.

There should be a forum thread to discuss this problem.

 

Not in this thread, which is where you have asked the question of others.

You didn't even respond to my answer to the question, instead latching onto the mention of Tesla and throwing out a wisdom slight.

Forgot about them. I know Renault has multiple EV models in Europe, but haven't heard much on their plans outside of the Leaf for the US.

The insistence of sticking with air cooling had me discount the Leaf for myself, so I haven't given them much thought.

In fairness, 2017 is before the introduction of Toyota's new port/DI engines, which make a jump in efficiency. Their fleet numbers should improve as those are in their major sellers, Rav4 and Camry.

Without those engines and hybrids, the fuel economy ratings of their products are in line with, or worse than everybody else.

 

Efforts to avoid addressing specific issues directly related to this topic are very, very telling. LIQUID COOLING is one such issue.

You absolutely insist it is a necessity. I point out that is really just a work-around until more robust & affordable battery-chemistry becomes available. It makes no sense to endorse added cost & complexity long-term.

You also shoot yourself in the foot by making that assertion of need. With such a requirement, it forces a large & inflexible pack design. Being able to distribute stacks of cells for better weight distribution, better physical fit, and better accessibility isn't possible. You become stuck by limitations of your unsubstantiated claim.

Keep digging. Each negative spin response provides more rebuttal material to help reveal shortcomings & motive.

 

To answer your question @Bill Norton, apparently by avoiding the question you posed entirely.
Done better than many politicians

 

> First, it's Heating and Cooling. Thermal Management System.
You're saying we should just 'wait' for more 'robust' batteries.
I guess you and your favorite multinational corporation can take that approach.
After all, at least twice a month there are news article: We are 'close' to having a fantastic new 'battery-chemistry !'.
One, I presume you're saying, that will be happy with no TMS from -20°F to 120°F. That would be fantastic!

>>Liquid based TMS is more efficient and more compact. Large noisy fans (blowing cabin air?) and all the required air passages are not needed at the pack.
We no longer have air cooled engines for a reason.... You are rooting for OLD Tech.
(I suspect you are part of toyota marketing and not an engineer by taking this stance..)

Are you saying that Tesla, Porsche (800 VDC !), GM and others are all doing it wrong?
Have you seen all the various packagings of these packs?

tldr,,,
After recently seeing the huge amount of dust bunnies in the bottom of a Gen3 HV pack on a buddy's high mileage car, I plan on taking my air fan out to clean it and tape in a shop vac where the fan duct was and use high pressure air to back blast out the small air gaps between the modules.
I'll post pics of what I find in the shop vac and the set up.
In summary air cooling with cabin air is OLD TECH. Having the HV pack in the cabin is OLD TECH.

 

but also more expensive. you dont thinkbig rebates and discounts drive prime sales?

but there's also low demand for hybrids and phev's

 

without watching the video, i wouldnt say there's no demand, but i would say low demand