Gen II Prius Individual Battery Module Replacement

I have a Charsoon antimatter 4x300w.
Please advice me...
How is the "correct" order:
- formating a cell then discharge/charge cycles ?
Or discharge/charge cycles then a formating?
Thanks!

 

I discharge (down to 6V) and then recharge each module.
For charging I set it to 5A, which is harmless (ie I do alternate modules, not side-by-side).
I turn off the charging limit; others set it to numbers such as 7,250mAh, 7,500mAh or 8,000mAh.
Five minute gap between each cycle.





When each module is done then scroll through the numbers and type them all into a spreadsheet.

 

Phildo, have you ever considered starting a YouTube channel to share your vast knowledge on cars to the world? I reckon it would be a big success.

 

Phildo, I see you are using Turnigy Reaktor QuadKore 4 x 300W. I wanted to buy same charger/discharger but have read somewhere that after cycling NiMH 3 times it doesn't display the results for each cycle for me to review, which makes it useless for my purpose. I'm an absolute newbie and don't know as of yet which charger is better. i previously bought Hitec X4 Ac/DC pro, but had to return it because, before ordering it, i had read its user manual online at Hitec's website. On page 17, it clearly states that after cycling, you can press the DEC or INC buttons to access the results of each cycle, but it didn't do it. It took me a day and a half to automatically cycle the modules three times, but at the end i couldn't see the results and returned it. returning it was a hassle, as they didn't want to take it back and insisted that it can still charge batteries even if it doesn't show cycling results.
How are you able to cycle and see the results with the Reaktor Quadkore? Is the info i got that it will cycle automatically but won't show me the results wrong? Right now I'm in the market searching for the proper charger to buy to start learning. I like the specs of this Turnigy charger, but am afraid that if i buy it it won't show me the results of cycling.
Also, are you discharging the modules at 10A? Is the QuadKore able to discharge at 10A. Is it safe to discharge these old modules at 10A?
Sorry for too many questions. I'm newbie and have read a lot on PC so far, but still a lot more to learn. Thanks also for your valuable contributions

 

Phildo, I reread posting #2376 on this thread, and realized it is from you I read that the Turnigy chargers have changed and you recommended the Charsoon charger:

"The Turnigy Reaktors changed a while ago. Apparently the Charsoon Antimatter chargers are the same as the older Reaktors."

I am going to order a the Charsoon charger you recocommeded. I found it on banggood for $228. Once more thanks for the enormous info and help you provide

 

No one seems to post the answer to this question....

How long does it take to run a 3cycle discharge/charge (Phildo) on that faster 1200w setup?
Are you using a 12v Battery as the source or a power supply thats capable for it?
If you use a battery, are you using the Regen Feature when Discharging? (discharge energy goes into source to be reused)

Can you break it down for me? Trying to figure out time frame for doing a pack with probably the charsoon 1200w, since turnigy decided to **** everyone with a dumbass upgrade.

I know obviously the fastest setup known with rc chargers is using the turnigy/charsoon.
Is anyone knowledgeable on another charger setup for something similar?

And last question.

How about this more common chargers among people,
such as the
Ev-Peak Cq3 100W x4 / 10A
Icharger 406 Duo (2channel) 1400w / 40amp per ch
Icharger x6 800W 30Amps (This one is supposed to be really good one for the price )

And then theres this
SkyRC Ultimate Duo (2ch) 1400W and 30Amps

Any help is appreciated!

 

With a Turnigy Reaktor QuadKore, charging at 5A, it seems to take "roughly" 12 hours to cycle a set of four modules (ie discharge/recharge x three times).

I hit the jackpot and have managed to borrow a set of four QuadKores. Yep, four of them. Those four, along with an iCharger 406DUO, mean that I can cycle 18 modules at once - that's useful for me for checking a Camry Hybrid pack (ie 34 modules, so I can cycle 17 at once).

I can now put a Camry pack on my desk and have the whole lot cycled and numbers entered into a spreadsheet in around 24 hours (after changing the leads to alternate modules half way through).
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What to look for in a charger: Discharge capacity. That's measured in Watts (eg 20W).
Discharge capacity determines how quickly the charger will discharge each module (which we're doing at least three times).
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When looking at chargers, look at:

- How many modules you can cycle at once. A four channel charger is good as it can cycle four modules at once.

- All the advertisements for chargers state clearly what current they can charge at, but we're not charging these modules with any time urgency so that doesn't matter (as opposed to someone who's racing remote control cars and needs their batteries charged before the next race). The most you're going to charge at is 1C (ie 6.5A), so being able to charge at 20A is irrelevant to us. Heck, I'm charging at 5A and have no intention of going past that.

- The Amp discharge rate depends on the voltage of the module, eg when a module is fully charged I get 2.7A discharge but when the module is nearly discharged I get 3.1A. That's on a Reaktor QuadKore with a discharge capacity of 20W, so it's discharge capacity (20W) divided by the module voltage = the discharge rate in A, eg 20W on the Reaktor divided by 7.5V on a nearly full module = 2.6666A (which appears as 2.7A on the Reaktor display).
* Note: I'm dumb. I know just about zero about electrical theory. Use this as a very basic head start, but do your own homework... and come back and try and teach me some of it. With very simple words. Type them slowly.

- What matters for us is the discharge power capacity - that's a number in Watts (W). You want the highest possible discharge Wattage.
Examples:
- The iCharger 4010DUO is the king of the heap here. With a maximum discharge capacity of 1400W on each of the two channels (ie two modules at once) you'll get around 20A discharge. That will also effectively load test your modules at the same time. It's a crying shame that the 4010DUOs are so expensive, and almost never turn up secondhand anywhere.
- The next best is the iCharger 406DUO (I've got one of these). With an 80W discharge capacity (ie four times that of the Reaktor) that one discharges at around 10A (depending on the voltage of the module).
- The iCharger 308DUO has the same discharge capacity as the 406DUO. We don't care about the different charging capacities between the 308 and 406 because we're not going to be charging at anywhere near their maximums.
- The EV Peak stuff only has a 10W discharge capacity (ie half that of the Reaktor and Charsoon Antimatter chargers). The CQ3 is good for simplicity as it has an internal power supply - EV-PEAK CQ3 | EV . But, with that 10W discharge capacity you're only going to get around 1.3A discharge, so it's going to take around 24 hours to cycle a set of four modules.
- The iCharger X6 might be wonderful for its intended use (ie remote controlled stuff) but it's nothing special for us. Sure, the 30W discharge capacity is pretty good but apart from that it's no better than a cheaper iCharger 106b+, 206b, etc.

The iCharger DUO range is twin channel, meaning that they can cycle two modules at once.

The other iChargers (ie single channel ones) are also good but will only do one module at a time. Again, look at the discharge capacity.

All the iChargers will give the numbers that we need - the charge and discharge mAh figure for each charge and discharge.
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••• ESSENTIAL•••
When looking for a charger make sure that it will display those charge and discharge figures. Essential.
All the iChargers do this.
Turnigy Reaktor chargers did until around two years ago, but something's happened with the design and current ones don't do this anymore. There is nothing external on the Reaktors to indicate which version they are, not even a serial number. Just a tad dodgy from HobbyKing to keep this quiet (the company that sells the Reaktors).
The Hitec 44254 that I bought a while ago did NOT display the numbers, so that one was a waste of time (and was resold).
I also bought a SkyRC S60 and that doesn't display the numbers either (so it would be a logical assumption that none of the SkyRC chargers are of any use to us).
I don't know if the EV Peak chargers display these numbers.
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Chargers to consider:
- Any iCharger. Why:
- They display the charge/discharge mAh numbers that will show you the capacity of each module (ie you really just want the final discharge figure, but I put all six numbers for each module into a spreadsheet).
- Relatively good discharge rates (20W upward).
- There's the iCharger 30B which, with its 80W discharge, will discharge a module very quickly. But, it only does one module at once, which means that you're going to be changing cables/modules a lot.
Turnigy Reaktors older than around two years. There's nothing on the outside of the charger to indicate whether it's the older (good) version or the newer (no good) one. You'll need to power it up and check the settings - I posted a bunch of photos a while ago that show the differences between the two chargers. The newer one charges NiZN and LiHV so that's the one that you want to avoid.
- The Charsoon Antimatter chargers are a copy of the older (ie good) Reaktors. You'll have to order them direct from China from web sites such as AliExpress - Online Shopping for Popular Electronics, Fashion, Home & Garden, Toys & Sports, Automobiles and More. and http://www.banggood.com. I would suggest the four channel one, ie the Charsoon Antimatter 4X300W 20A Synchronous Balance Charger.
- If you're considering an EV Peak then find out first if it displays the charge/discharge figures.
- The Hitec and SkyRC chargers that I bought did NOT display the charge/discharge numbers so I'm assuming that none of them do. Therefore, Hitech and SkyRC chargers are not suitable for us.
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Power supplies
Originally I wanted one of the 1200W ones that can power four chargers at once, but then I realised that they don't have enough output.
I've got a borrowed Turnigy 1200W 50A Power Supply but found that it held the Reaktors back. What? With four modules charging at 5A each the charger requires at least 20A (hence Turnigy sells a 23A power supply). One output is 50A, so that can power a Reaktor just fine, but the other three outputs are only 10A each (which meant that I could only charge at around 2.5A per module instead of 5A).
I ended up buying several SkyRC eFuel 30A power supplies secondhand on eBay, and now have one power supply for each charger. eg https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/133092761409
If you see a secondhand SkyRC eFuel 30A power supply somewhere for a reasonable price then buy it.

 

I wish!

Regenerative discharge is the way go to as it would mean discharging modules at 20A and effectively load testing them at the same time.

I'm now running four Reaktor QuadKores and an iCharger 406DUO at once, so I have no idea what I'd need to get to run that lot together.

For power supplies, I bought secondhand SkyRC eFuel 30A ones on eBay over various months (ie every time I saw a secondhand one I bought it).

 

Oh, hell no!

1) Example: You're driving along and you see someone with a flat tyre. You locate and fit the spare wheel. That person now thinks that you're a mechanical genius, but really it's just that you know one more thing about cars than they do.

You then go home and take an hour to do an engine oil change because you keep forgetting which size socket you need for the oil drain bolt.

2) I'm a monumental screw-up at re-assembling things. I suck at it, and will always forget to do something, have to pull it all apart again and then re-assemble it again.

Watching me work would be like watching a horror movie... you know... the scene where the girl walks into a room (where the murderer is waiting) and you're screaming out, "nooo... don't go in there!!!"... it would be something like that... "hey, you f**king moron, you forgot the bolt in the bottom left corner... again!!!"

An hour later you'd see me cursing as I pull it all apart again just to put that left-corner bolt back in... only to then forget the one in the right-corner.

I would be responsible for the destruction of numerous computer screens as people would go nuts and throw things.

3) I'm slow. No-one wants to watch someone as clumsy as me take 6 hours to do a 20 minute job.

However, I do acknowledge that watching me work is extremely antagonising and could be used for other purposes. Want to interrogate a terrorist? Water boarding would seem relaxing compared to watching me do things. If anyone here works for the CIA... call me.



Note: I have taken a lot of photos. Because I'm hopeless at remembering how it was disassembled, and therefore how to put it back together again later. I'll start posting photos one of these days (ie soon).

 

Is this correct? wouldn't this matter on the initial state of charge? Please explain. thanks.

 

you have provided some great input to this whole thread. thank you so much.

Now one of the settings that seems very confusing is the Delta V. someone mention setting it somewere between 3 and 6 mL per cell. but if it is old to 8. can you please bring some light to this. I feel that this is the missing link to providing a healthy charge in the batteries. thanks.

 

JeffD

My statement above is true if the safety timer ends the charging session. Obviously, if the module starts out partially charged, the session should end sooner via other mechanisms such as a Delta-V trigger.

When I was doing my work all of my charging sessions ended successfully by just accepting the default settings for Delta-V. I did not investigate optimizing the parameters.

 

has anyone ever bother to test the voltage of a module after a 6.0 discharge? to confirm the voltage reading from the charger is correct?

All I am trying to get to is 6 volts or at least 6.5 volts. I can't figure out anything on the settings with both chargers to get any lower than 7 volts.

regardles of the voltage cut off setting used, it always stops at 7.0 volts.

with the discharge setting I am just trying to get an idea of the health of the module since the charge setting goes all the way to the capacity cutoff of 7500 mAh.

I am using a newer skyrc Q200 and an older dynamite passport ultra. both same results although the settings windows are almost identical.

 

I don't have any experience with RC chargers or single module charging, but a couple questions.

Are you right there when the charger stops, or do you come back sometime after it has cutoff?

Is it possible the voltage reached 6.0 V and then it has bounced back to 7.x V?

At what current are you discharging? If you can lower it to about 500 mA, maybe it would work better, but in any case, the voltage will bounce back after the load is removed.

 

good point dolj. yes I have been there right after is done discharging and still is 7 v.

I have also discharge at 4 A, 2 A, 1A, and 0.5 A to test the theory and it always stops at 7v.

I am starting to think that is a internal setting with all the RC chargers. What kind of charger do you use?

 

I've noticed with my HTRC C240 DUO that I sometimes have to alter the discharge settings to show the module as having, say, 5 or 4 cells, in order to bring down the discharge voltage limit. Might be worth checking if you can do that also.

 

I tried tricking the charger into thinking is a 5s but I got an error saying " Error Battery high voltage". I will try discharging some and trying again. but I can't discharge too much because it will defeat the purpose of doing a full discharge and getting a true capacity.

btw I just tried it with a HTRC T40. I have three different chargers going at the same time.

 

I use an HA Prolong to charge and a manual lightbulb discharger to discharge. Discharging is a totally manual process for me.

 

could you please comment on these 3 questionable modules after several cycling attempts, thank you:

MOD Char4 Disc 5 Char 5 Disc 6 Char 6 Disc 7 Char 7
1 6910 4394 5847 4323 6038 4301 5693
7 5582 7156 5529 6930
16 7021 4802 7500 5695 7500 5564 7500

Module 1 started pretty good and it has drop overtime. is it reversed? is it still usable? #7 and $16 have dropped too but they are above 5000. the rest of the modules I was able to get them to 5900 or higher.

 

Why is this forum so quite?

I am getting ready to write a summary up to this point on the procedure of reconditioning the battery, but I want to ask one final question:

why can't we use the RC charger to do a load test instead of the light bulb set up? I can easily set my RC charger to do a big discharge (5 amp) and measure the voltage during the given time frame. would this be comparable to the light bulb test?

Also my charger can measure the battery resistance. isn't this related to the load test vales and batt resistance? could the resistance value be sufficient to choose the matching pairs and remove bad modules? maybe just the units are different?

if the answer to the my last question is yes, this would cut a lot of extra time from the entire process.