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Loved my Prime, but battery range pushed me to Honda Clarity

Discussion in 'Prime Main Forum (2017-2022)' started by CyberDyneSystems, Jul 27, 2019.

  1. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    too many variables without details.

    trims, msrp, rebates, discounts, credits, ymmv
     
  2. PiPLosAngeles

    PiPLosAngeles Senior Member

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    The California incentive when I purchased was only $1,500. If you remove that incentive you add $0.01 per mile operating cost. The Prime has to cost $0.10 per mile more than it currently costs before it reaches price parity with the Corolla - $13,500 over 150,000 miles. Even if I had to replace my hybrid battery once out of pocket the total operating cost is still lower than the Corolla.
     
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  3. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Which is your specific situation.

    Gas is cheaper in much of the country outside California. AAA lists the national average at $2.737. Over 5 years, 15k miles annually, the Corolla hybrid saves $2250 in fuel over the ICE model. It is $3000. On average, the first owner of a car keeps it for around 6 years.

    Using electricity is cheaper for many, but in New England, it can cost more.

    Then some states have annual property tax on cars. Hybrids and PHEVs will pay more because they are have a higher assessed value from the MSRP.
     
  4. fotomoto

    fotomoto Senior Member

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    I think many here will understand. Many a PIP owner lauded the increase in range the Prime offered and switched.

    I was one of the (very) few who actually went down in range (Volt to C-Max Energi) because my commute changed and, as the saying goes, size matters. (umm, talking interior size here folks!) ;) 5 years later when I was looking for another plug-in and being a current and former Prius owner, the Prime easily made my shopping list but due to no local availability, no real range upgrade over the Energi, the negatives of an air-cooled pack in a hot climate (but I trust Toyota to know and manage those as best as possible), smaller interior, and styling that's just "too much" for me, it fell out of the running with the Clarity ultimately winning.

    Most Clarity owners love the range of course but the interior size, comfort, and ride (NVH) are widely praised including yours truly. To put it into Toyota speak, it's like getting a near Avalon sized car at Prius level prices. Add in any factory/dealer discounts, the fed. $7500 credit and any state and local incentives and its a tremendous value; my base level ended up around $20k. :whistle:

    With longer EV range, I was able to switch to a "free nights" electricity plan since the range (42-65 miles depending on the season/driving styles) easily covers my daily needs and I wouldn't need to opportunity charge at higher rates during the day like I often had to do in the Energi.
     
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  5. PiPLosAngeles

    PiPLosAngeles Senior Member

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    If an owner only keeps their car until it reaches 90,000 miles and then gets a new one without *needing* it, they are unnecessarily boosting their transportation costs by a large margin. Prorating a large investment over 90,000 vs 150,000 or more is a huge difference. Toyotas will easily make it to 150,000 miles without suffering reliability issues so long as they are maintained. That person is already not making the economics a priority in their car buying decisions, so our discussion isn't applicable.
     
  6. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    20k for a clarity? avalon like size? where do i sign up?(y)
     
  7. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    That's an average, so many are keeping the for less time. Which is why the X amount of cash buys a lot of gas statement convinces people not to get a hybrid.

    But my point is that there is more than financial reasons for a decision. The OP simply wants to drive more miles on electricity. Keeping the Prime and burning gasoline would be financially the smarter plan, but it doesn't factor in environmental and political costs.
     
  8. John321

    John321 Senior Member

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    It is interesting and I think a lot of fun to do these type calculations. It really does matter what part of the country you are in and what the corresponding gas/energy rates are. As part of our calculations to buy a PHEV we used these numbers.
    For us Federal tax credit of $4500. (yes we will us it)
    Energy rate of $.080Kwh
    Gas around $3 gallon (sometimes less sometimes more)
    Let's do the calculations based on keeping the car 150,000 miles
    I can average 30 miles on one charge therefore $.08x 8kw = $.64 per 30 miles using electricity
    150,000 miles / 30 miles per charge = 5000 charges
    5000 charges x $.64 = $3,200
    car averages 50 miles per gallon
    150,000 miles / 50 mpg = 3000 gallons
    3000 gallons x $3 = $9000
    Savings = $9000 - $3,200 = $5800

    $5800 gas savings + $4500 tax credit = $10,300

    Feeling being able to drive by gas stations and have a choice whether to buy their product or not = priceless.

    Trading in a vehicle that gets 25 miles per gallon would double the $5800 savings for gas.

    There are a lot of variables but this was a straight forward easy way for me to calculate saving and see if it made economic sense to purchase a plug in.

    We traded in a 2008 car so we also upgraded to a whole suite of great safety features.

    Maybe a family member avoiding an accident = priceless
     
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  9. fotomoto

    fotomoto Senior Member

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    Battery range will drop over the years; sometimes considerably.

    Ditto for mpg's unless very well taken care of (lots of maintenance).

    Indeed.

    So true. We have one owner on the Cmax Energi forum who both preaches and follows some extreme (IMO) advice he came up with that he thinks will extend HV battery life; basically to the point of avoiding using it under many conditions (what's the point of having it? but I digress.....) He did this for a couple of years only to have the car get totaled in an accident. Oh the irony.....
     
  10. CyberDyneSystems

    CyberDyneSystems Junior Member

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    It looks like there is some interest in hearing about my comparison with the Prime Vs. Clarity. I am happy to oblige.

    COSTS:
    First, I want to clear up the "$10K" cost bump I mentioned. I bought the Prime in Fall 2017, base model, for $25K with an incentive from Toyota. A few weeks (days?) later the Clarity was announced for 2018 with MSRP of approx $35K for the base, and more for the touring.
    None of this takes into account any federal tax or other local credits. Prices paid for Prime vs. MSRP for Clarity.

    I just got my 2019 Clarity for a little under $32K (base, not touring)
    I was able to get $20K trade in for my Prime. Then I will get the $7,500 tax credit. So with the larger tax credit due to the Clarity's bigger battery range and prices coming down, the difference are less than they were (or I understood that they were) back in Winter 2017 when Clarity first was available (or "hard to find" actually, but supposed to be available)

    In some areas, my own included, the demand for the Clarity is far less than the Prime and other Prius models. Toyotas proven track record and rep may be part of this, but it's weird. One dealer could not keep up with Demand, another had 7 SEVEN 2018 models sitting on the lot unsold and not able to move them. I could have done very well with one of those if the dealer did not creep me out. Nationally people are finding 2018 models on the lots for well under $30K

    COMPARISONS:
    Now onto the differences I am seeing after just over a months ownership with the Clarity vs. close to two years with the Prime.


    I'll start with the short list, of what the Prius does better than the Clarity, because it does have some objective (and subjective) advantages.

    - Autopilot/Cruise control Stopping and starting: Prius Primes' "auto pilot" braking and cruise control is vastly smoother in use. In the Prime, it slowed down as I approached oncoming vehicles gently, then it would begin to roll again gradually, all almost as if a conscientious hybrid owner was driving and applying the brakes and accelerator. In the Clarity this is not smooth, It's as if it's being driven by a new teenage male driver, herky jerky on the brake and accelerator.

    - MPG: Highest rated Hybrid mode MPG.

    - Range: Longer combined range (like nearly 600miles vs 350 or so.)

    - Hatchback: Subjective of course, but there are times (and people ) where the preference is for the hatchback. This "advantage" is mitigated by the fact that the Clarity actually has very good trunk space, so it really is a sketchy "advantage" Perfect world would be if the Clarity hinged above the rear windshield as a hatchback. In the Prime I was able to use it to carry a LOT of 8' lumber by folding seats down.

    - Information: The Prius Primes' multitude of information display settings are not only prolific, but easily and massively customize-able. One can set the various LCDs to provide exactly the info you want all the time. Again, this is subjective, and again mitigated by the fact that the Clarity's display is much more elegant, looks more like a car, is positioned in the right place, and just overall more pleasing and less "weird". But with the Clarity, so little of the possible info can be displayed at a time., It is always info on a menu you don;t have displayed on the one screen cluster that you want to see. Perfect world would be if the Clarity allowed us to customize it's display more, with and it had at least two separate sections for multiple things to see at once.

    - Mag Wheels: Remove the Primes ugly arse plastic hubcaps, and you get a VERY stylish set of alloy rims. For Free!
    Removing the ugly plastic from the Clarity reveals even more ugliness!

    - Center Console: Prime has larger storage in center console.

    - Volume Knob: Prime has one. Clarity does not. Nothing else need be said. I can't understand not providing a volume knob!

    Okay, now that's out of the way, let's move on to the Clarity's advantages.


    - Longer Battery Range: this was THE reason I was unsatisfied with my Prime, and once the Clarity was announced I started plotting the trade in. If not for this, I never would have even looked at the Clarity. I am glad I did!

    - Autosteering/LKAS: Unlike the stop and go advantage the Prime has, here the Clarity is far better at keeping the car on the road when you doze off. I hope that Honda will update the cruise control/braking to make it smoother.

    - Seating: Clarity Seats 5 comfortably. Very comfortably. Of course the Prime can only seat 4. No you can't even fake it,. it just can't seat 5. The seats are more comfortable, and I don;t have the leather touring with power seats. Just the basic fabric with manual adjustments.

    - Trunk Space: Oh you want truck space? Well, then don't bother with the Prime. The Clarity? It's got it in spades. Where the heck did they put all those batteries? The Clarity not only has ample trunk space, again unlike the Prime, it also has a sizeable secret hidy-hole for other uses*. (*see next entry) This is where the Prime designers really show the lack of thought that went into making the Prius a plug in with EV range. No attempt to fit the (minimal) extra batteries in a way that was unobtrusive. No they took your trunk space and gave it to the batteries. (worse, they took some of it and gave it to empty space between the batteries!) You give up all that space and only get 17-30 miles (depending on season/temp) of battery only range. On the Clarity you get more storage space, AND more batteries.

    - Audio Upgrade-ability: I am a bit of a audio junky. I've put very good to "high end" audio systems in the vast majority of the cars I've owned, starting all the way back in the 1980's running audio cassettes. For the two years I drove the Prime, I was plotting HOW I would shoehorn a good system into the Prime without compromising the limited storage space even further. I never did it. The Clarity has this wonderful space below the trunk floor where a jack and other tools might go (mine came with none of those?) Instead, it's housing the DSP, and a pair of amps to power the new door and column mounted speakers, and the removable sub-woofer that fits in yet another "part" of the trunk that isn't the main compartment. Combine all that with the Claritys' amazing front tweeter placement and you are set for a VERY nice platform for an audio upgrade!

    - Styling: Prime looks fine, Certainly better than the standard Prius. But it still looks quite a bit "eco/green". Clarity just looks good. If you can accept the aerodynamic throwback to the first plug in electric cars' rear wheel covers,. then it's a damn fine looking car. The front end is simply gorgeous IMHO, with THE. BEST. (full stop) driving lights in existence! It's great looking from any angle with the possible exception of the rear 3/4 view, (but to me the wheel wells are not an issue.)

    - Climate Control: AC is faster, better, settings are better/more accurate (I set mine between 70-72 and forget it) With the Prime, on very hot days, the temp I had it set too, would not seem as cool as it did the day before when the outside temp was 15 degrees lower, I'd have to lower the temp setting or override the "auto" and increase the fan speeds to get it back to comfortable. On the Clarity, we just went through a few days of high 90's and very hi humidity, and inside the care after a few minutes it felt exactly the same as it does when it's high 70's outside. Also the Clarity just PUMPS out the AC on start up. I don't even mind forgetting to preset the AC before getting in on HOT days.

    I have yet to need to try heat, but I can tell you that vs. my previous Toyota Tacoma, the Prius Primes' lack of ability to comfortably keep me warm on a half hour commute was legendary. For two winters I wore a "lap blanket" because my legs would ALWAYS be cold, regardless of what the Prime's settings were. I am a cold blooded red headed viking that is always too hot. Not in my Prime in Winter! I have high hopes that the Claritys' heat will equal it's AC. (Clarity owners are telling this is the case)


    - Auto Glass: The Clarity has a very moderate, almost unnoticeable tinting to all the glass. In these hot moths I can not tell you how much of a difference this minimal shielding helps. I can even make it a few blocks without remembering to don my sunglasses. I would never be able to do that with the Prime's perfectly clear glass. I have not noticed it impacting my night vision.

    - Comfort: Clarity is more comfortable. I have the base model.

    - Quiet: An even quieter ride than the Prime, more insulated.

    - Ride: So smooth. It's like a true luxury car. You'd need to move up to Lexus to get something this smooth in a Toyota, and likewise, the Clarity is longer heavier and more "solid" than any current Honda model. It's frame and body are closest to a model they called the "Cross Tour", larger then the Accord. It feels like a dream driving this car.

    In short, right now I am in honey moon mode. This is the best car I've owned since my 1969 Cadillac I owned in the late 1980s. It is the most comfortable, quiet, stylish luxurious ride. I am really looking forward to the next year commuting to work.
     
    #50 CyberDyneSystems, Jul 29, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2019
  11. smyles

    smyles Active Member

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    How's the backup camera? When I test drove clarity, I thought the camera looked very low resolution for the display size (not that the Prius one is high-def, but Honda's looked even worse.)

    And yeah, hatchback/liftback would make more sense with such a huge trunk.
     
  12. will the engineer

    will the engineer Active Member

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    Yeup that range anxiety! i hate it
     
  13. will the engineer

    will the engineer Active Member

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    Yeup got the same. I said as long as its 35 and up
     
  14. CyberDyneSystems

    CyberDyneSystems Junior Member

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    In some ways better, in some ways not. The Prime did look better, but the Clarity offers 3, count them 3 different viewing angle options. Normal, ultra wide, and straight down. It also "wiggles the lines" when you turn the wheel. Not sure I like that, but it does it.
     
  15. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    Aim higher!! :D
     
  16. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    does clarity have a heat pump?
     
  17. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Not the PHEV. It has an electric heater in heater core loop.
     
  18. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    that's gotta eat up some miles
     
  19. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    It's a PHEV, you are going to have to burn up the gas in the tank at some point. In winter, you can put the waste heat to work.
    The Clarity doesn't take the EV purist stance. The engine will fire up when the pedal is floored.
     
  20. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    that's not the way it works for most phev owners. witness the o/ps range anxiety