Why Toyota is not selling electric cars

Out of the top 20 vehicles sold in the US, none of them are hybrids. Seems everyone is making money status quo.

 

Is that an ironic reference or were you being facetious?

"LIVE GREEN, GO YELLOW" was GM's first disastrous failure attempting to undermine hybrids. Remember that E85 marketing campaign? That was before the Two-Mode, Volt-1, and Volt-2 disasters. With such a well established "over promise, under deliver" reputation, I'm really surprised how many simply accept the ambiguous statements without any regard to lack of supporting material. The sharing of lessons learned is an exercise to prevent repetition of it happening yet again.

The wasting of tax-credits, then spinning those who took the time to really think through their decisions as "laggards", is a red-flag that there's enough gullible people for the cycle of misleading to continue. History repeats for those who are not wise enough to study what happened in the past and work to prevent.

This is an aspect of "know your audience". When the cycle begins again, you observe who participates. When that introductory stage concludes, you observe who's being targeted. For Two-Mode, Volt-1, and Volt-2, there was a clear mismatch between the audience claimed and the actual buyers. That through goals into chaos. Each of those projects fell apart as a result.

For E85, there was no target... since as you say, there was no supply in many locations. Of course, that's a red-herring. Your reference is from a decade ago. The industry has moved on to a more realistic approach since then, support for E15.

 

My intent was to say that the E85 tax break from the government to flex fuel vehicle manufacturers was (and perhaps still is? I don't know if it still exists) a waste. IIRC it was intended to get more people using corn fields to power their vehicles instead of oil fields. People couldn't do that if there were no vehicles that could use more corn ethanol. The manufacturer made out regardless of what fuel the owner of the vehicle chose to use. Most could not use E85 since it didn't exist in most places yet the manufacturer got their break anyway so the government got less tax income but did not get the result they 'paid' for. I also think I remember there was some sort of credit for the companies that blended E85.

 

I think Toyota is doing it the right way. They are a conservative company that want to manufacture solid, reliable vehicles. In doing so, they will be profitable and in it for the long haul. There is no use if you go bankrupt doing it. I bought the Prime over the others (ie. Volt, Tesla, Ford, etc) for that reason and also got a great deal. I suspect most the folks on this forum did so for one of those reasons also. Environmentally, the way I use the prime is almost as equal to any BEV. I drive about 20 miles per day and I do it in all EV. I do travel about once very 2 months or so (about 500 miles round trip) and those times it is at about 50 to 53 mpg. In due time when Toyota sees it profitable, they will go full electric. The 2019 Rav-4 hybrid this year is about $800 more than the non-hybrid version. Sooner or later, this will translate to plug-in hybrid also (we are there now with the prius prime with the tax incentives). Then afterwards it will achieve lower TCO with EV vs. ICE vehicles.

 

No

 

Tesla's up and down quality reputation is easily the best reason to delay buying a BEV. Others will fill the quality niche, and likely it will be Toyota. In the interim, the Prius is a good "bridge" car.

 

A man of principle.

 

Has anyone been following VW’s ID concept car development program? They are using the EV models they are releasing soon to show their seriousness about the environment and rehabilitate their name. They appear to be well engineered with state of the art components. The I.D. is very pretty and looks to have a very spacious and simplified interior.

It is a genuine and impressive effort from what I have been able to gather. It is based on a a new architecture designed specifically foe battery electric vehicles. I think that the company could give Tesla competition. The I.D. hatchback is very impressive, but unfortunately won’t be introduced in the United States. Instead they will be launching an electric crossover and bus in this country. They don’t think a small ev will sell here and judging by what sells here, they are probably right.

 

The tax credits on the Volt we're wasted. The Volt got them 3/4ths of the way to the Bolt.
A product naming success!

Mike

 

Does Toyota actually get negative press? Or just negative forum posts?

Anyway, the reason is very simple. With the Prius, Toyota got wide spread positive expectations of driving the future of clean transportation. They were the leader. The cars were cleaner and affordable. They were pushing the technology forward. The future was clear...a long multi-lane highway with electric drive. Then they took a left turn down High-dro-gen Drive and it turned out to be cul-de-sac...a fancy word for DEAD END. Sure, maybe in 10 or 20 years the street will be improved into an on ramp for the Electric Highway. But maybe not.

Mike

 

Cheap? Do you mean
- low cost at the pump
- low cost before taxes
- low cost including to the environment

Fossil fuels burned to power BEV are better spent than fossil fuel burned as you drive around. Lower emissions for smog, lower CO2, more efficient in terms of miles per BTU, not foul smelling, you can refuel at home, you can refuel without fossil fuels if you want.

Your comments sound just like the ones an a oil executive would say.

What do you think the "vast majority" number is?
28–40% of EV Drivers Have Solar Panels (CleanTechnica EV Report) | CleanTechnica

If 28-40% of EV drivers have solar and the grid has significant nuclear, hydro as well as some wind/solar, especially in CA, how do you even get to a majority with these numbers?

Mike

 

Sure. And Toyota did a good job building the bridge. It is time to cross the bridge and get to the EV side. Most people with a single family home (60%) can easily charge an EV as a second car at home. Some can afford a 300 mile EV as a first car.

Thank you Toyota, mission accomplished, with a bridge well built.

Mike

 

Hmmm... Seems like that would be a reason not to buy a Tesla, not necessarily a reason not to buy an EV.

 

Yes, sadly Tesla was the leader in reasonably long range BEVs. Good build quality at first but it seems that in their effort to mass market the Model 3, they lapsed in that regard. The latest Consumer Reports lists the '17 &'18 Model S and X under "worst used cars". The Prius is listed under "best used cars" every year '09 (the earliest they list) through '18. All 3 Tesla models are listed as "worse than average" reliability. Of course some people don't care a lot about that, if everyone did, Jeep would have been out of business years ago.

It saddens me that Tesla is faltering. The cars are too expensive to not be reliable and by putting out 200 mile EV range vehicles, they set a bar all BEV makers need to at least approach because clearly it is possible and that kind of range covers a large percentage of the driving populations' need.

 

Then again, there are reasons *to* buy a Tesla, like their V3 SuperChargers: 1000 miles per hour (on a Model 3). In other words, add 100 in 6 minutes!

 

28 to 40% of EV Drivers do not have solar panels. This number is from a survey, not a scientific study. it relied on responses, not data. The wind, hydro and solar your refer to is not significant. Nuclear is significant, but far less than fossil fuels . And the majority of the respondents to your "research" indicated that they drove PHEV (you know -- like the PRIUS PRIME). Get your facts straight.

And I am not from big oil, although I do prefer Mobil 1 and Chevron gasoline.

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Someone will pick up the Tesla pieces from bankruptcy.

You can see from the daily Tesla news that they are in a desperate scramble for survival. Layoffs, closing all stores, razor thin margins on the Model 3 (if any at all), raises in SuperCharger rates, poor quality, closing of repair centers and going to "rover" vans for repairs, lack of spare parts for repairs, price changes up and down, inability to deliver promised "auto driving" capabilities that early adopters already paid for, crappy resale values, scrambling attempts to sell overseas, etc. It goes on and on.

 

It’s very sad, but it has definitely put the brakes on any Tesla purchase by me. It seems like a fun car that has a lot going for it, but the company seems schizophrenic. I’ll wait for things to settle down before I make my decision. This is a time of change.

 

A BEV will never be my primary form of transportation. They're just not practical for my life.

 

i would like to pick up a used tesla for a 'crappy' price. can anyone point me in the right direction?