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World's Worst Mileage?

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Fuel Economy' started by notjonathan, Aug 10, 2006.

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  1. grasshopper

    grasshopper Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Aug 12 2006, 06:58 PM) [snapback]302297[/snapback]</div>

    That’s right, what is the hold up? Take it out and reset the mileage and drive for 5 minutes. Sure your better off driving further, but when you look at the consumption screen you can see buy the yellow or orange bar(depending on what you have it set for) on the far right what is happening. Step on the gas and get it up to 50 or 60 and let off the gas, then put pressure on lightly and see if you can keep it at about the same speed, even slowing down a little. Then look at the bar and see if it is anywhere near 50 MPG. When you let off the bar should go to 99, and with a very light foot you should see the bar setting at about 50 or 55 mpg. I personally don’t care about the 5 minute bars because you should be able to see if it working properly in about 1 minute. What happens when you do this? I believe that your results should be close to this even with a cold engine. If that doesn’t work then keep driving until the engine warms up and by then you should have enough information to know if there is something drastically wrong or not.

    I hate to say this, but I’m starting to have concerns about the validity of this thread. <_<

    I have forgotten, you do have stock rims and tires, don't you?


    Edit

    OK, I just went to the store for some milk, about 5 or 6 miles. Was out earlier with car so engine was not cold but cool. Out dirt driveway 1 1/10 mi onto very rough truck road at 50 mph for 1 mi. then regular two lane country road for about 4 miles. Slow down once to 25 for turning car then back up to 50. One stop sign and up to 50 again. I only got between 45 and 46 MPG. So maybe I exaggerated a little above. Hope this helps.

    Oh I forgot, we dont have front licence plates in this state, so thats probibly the 20 MPG difference. :lol:
     
    #41 grasshopper, Aug 12, 2006
  2. donee

    donee New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Lost In The Hills @ Aug 12 2006, 07:31 PM) [snapback]302278[/snapback]</div>
    Hi Lost...,

    That really sounds like the 23 mpg is your entire averages since getting the car. This makes sense due to the accident you were in, and mechanics working on the car. Go to your Consumption Screen and hit RESET ! 2006 Prius cars do not have an automatic reset. I do this with EVERY fill up. Then I see what the average mileage was for the tank just before the next fillup in 500 miles or so.
     
    #42 donee, Aug 12, 2006
  3. ohgreys

    ohgreys New Member

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    I'm still interested in knowing if you've calculated the mpg yourself at any point.
     
    #43 ohgreys, Aug 12, 2006
  4. THoover392

    THoover392 New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Lost In The Hills @ Aug 12 2006, 03:31 PM) [snapback]302278[/snapback]</div>

    I dont know if this helps...but

    Last winter I was driving extremely short distances (2/3 mile to work, then 12hrs later 2/3 mile home) and it was cold (snow, ice, etc..) and I was not getting good gas mileage (of course). But it was still in the mid to low thirties.

    OG

    edit

    donee-
    whoa! the '06 doesn't auto reset? I WANT THAT! I hate it when it resets on me....I want full trip mpg.
     
    #44 THoover392, Aug 12, 2006
  5. creamer

    creamer New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(OtterGuy @ Aug 12 2006, 09:08 PM) [snapback]302377[/snapback]</div>
    Personally, I find it to be as annoying as can be. The miles auto-reset, but the miles per gallon do not. I wish they worked together, as those two numbers seem like they ought to traveling in pairs. Instead, it's a half-reset.

    Lost In The Hills: here's a really off-the-wall idea on the poor MPG -- do you know that your miles themselves are accurate? I mean, like the odometer? My Prius and my former car are a little off from each other, unless Iowa was recently moved further from Saint Paul (102 miles in old car vs. 104 miles in new car, exact same route). If it was miscounting miles by a factor of two, your miles per gallon would change accordingly. On the bright side, when you turn 100,000 miles, the odometer would only read 50,000.

    Like I said, it's a really off-the-wall idea, and someone probably has a technical reason why it's not possible. (Like if that also affected the speedometer.)
     
    #45 creamer, Aug 12, 2006
  6. cwerdna

    cwerdna Senior Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Snooze Button @ Aug 12 2006, 07:49 PM) [snapback]302390[/snapback]</div>
    Kinda of on the opposite, a small # of 02 Nissan Maximas had odometers that read in kilometers in instead of miles: http://www.nissanhelp.com/Ownership/Bullet...1/NTB01-086.htm.

    Regarding the difference between your Prius and your other car. http://www.caranddriver.com/features/1906/...er-scandal.html is a somewhat interesting article about speedometer and odometer accuracy.
     
    #46 cwerdna, Aug 13, 2006
  7. notjonathan

    notjonathan New Member

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    Some updates for your latest questions, all you fine people--

    To Grasshopper-- Yes, the right-hand bar seems to be performing as you describe. And while it's hard to figure an average, with all the movement in that bar, it seemed to me pretty consistent with what I was seeing in the three 5-minute bars. The stuff I described in my reply to Chogan (post #37). And yeah-- stock rims and tires. (Though wait a minute--I was checking the inflation regularly before the body work, but I haven't done it since. I did happen to do a casual visual check earlier today, and they don't look low at all. They look normal or maybe even a little high. But I'll try to remember to check them in the morning. Of course, the problem had started before the body work (and I'm glad I opened the case on it with Toyota HQ back then). So I don't expect much on the inflation front.

    To Donee: No, the bad mileage didn't start with the body work. I was getting around 29 before the body work (with occasional periods as high as maybe 31 or 32) but mostly 29-point-something. One difference since then is that it's air-conditioning season now in Los Angeles. So that could account for some drop. As for the body work, it didn't involve the engine system at all. It did involve the left front wheel--and the linkages, etc., on that wheel were replaced as a precaution. But the alignment, etc., was tested since, they tell me. And I sure don't notice any pull or drag or anything-- no signs of a bad brake or alignment, etc. So the accident didn't start the problem. I had poor mileage before the accident, and somewhat crummier mileage now. (But I am running the A.C. now. I know you can always get slightly better mileage without A.C., but as I understand it, the difference isn't all that huge, the way it was on cars in years past. (The Toyota help line advisor at their headquarters in Torrance also mentioned that A.C. wouldn't account for performance this anemic.)

    As for the issue of resetting the consumption screen at fill-up, my 2006 does do that automatically. The handbook says that it does that as long as you add some specific amount; I forget the exact amount, but it's somewhere between 2 and 3 gallons. (I do notice elsewhere on the forums people mentioning that the automatic reset can come a few moments after the fill-up-- the way it sometimes takes a minute or so in most cars for the gas gauge to register the new level.)

    To Ohgreys-- no, I haven't done a manual check of mileage yet. I was making notes for one, but the repair work interrupted the previous fill-up cycle. Also, the body shop and the Toyota dealer did a bunch of test driving--around 30 miles--so even if I found my notes, I'd want to start fresh. Anyway, I have started my notes for the current cycle. I'll try to use as much of the tank as possible before refilling, for the best reading. Unfortunately, that'll take some time because I'm working on a big round-the-clock deadline--and I work at home-- so there won't be too much driving beyond the supermarket for a couple of weeks.

    To Snooze Button (which is my favorite appliance, by the way): interesting thought about the odometer. I'll try to remember to compare it with some known distances, or maybe compare it to the distances given by the navigation system (though those are a bit iffy). It doesn't seem noticeably wrong, but who knows?

    To OtterGuy, re your note:

    Yes, that's exactly the sort of thing that helps me to figure out if the problem is my travel habits or something else. And it all stuff that I can mention to the dealer's service dept., too, as a comparison.

    And finally, to Grasshopper again, re your observation:

    I can kinda relate-- I mean, I feel that way about huge portions of my life.

    Meanwhile, I still feel good about this car. I love everything about it except for this mileage problem, which I think may be a one-off issue. I know that really it's all about bringing the car in for service. Wish I could just take it in Monday, but it'll probably have to wait a couple of weeks, on account of work and also 'cause I'd like to do a manual reading on one whole tank, first. And maybe get one of those half-dozen other Prius drivers (all within like two blocks in my little Hollywood Hills neighborhood) to use my car for a day or two, for that comparison.

    By the way, I had got used to those automatic door locks (that lock when you drive forward) on my previous cars, and wonder if anyone ever heard a special reason why this car doesn't have them, since it has so many other super-automatic features, like the keyless system. I don't know that I need it, I just keep being surprised that my door (or doors, depending) isn't locked. I guess I could consider the aftermarket one if I every really feel like I want it--but does anyone know if that might screw up the warranty? I sure don't need that.

    Well, cheers, all.

    P.S.: Did I mention that I am towing a battleship? Just a smallish, decommissioned one.

    (Naw. Heck, I'm not even towing a bumper sticker.)
     
    #47 notjonathan, Aug 13, 2006
  8. kdmorse

    kdmorse Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Lost In The Hills @ Aug 13 2006, 05:07 AM) [snapback]302482[/snapback]</div>
    I think the manual does indeed say it does that - but it actually doesn't do it. The consumption screen *will* automatically reset the miles driven on the current tank. However - it does *not* reset the avg MPG. If you've never reset it yourself, it's showing a long term average, going all the way back to when you purchased the car. As a result, bad driving, bad conditions, or anything that you may have done in the distant past, may still be having an effect on your current Avg Mpg display.

    Edit: Talking about 2006's only. I understand 04-05's may behave differently?

    So, if you (or the shop, or anyone) left it on and burned up a tank (10 Gallons consumed, 0 miles driven) that would still be dragging your avg down badly.

    Though quite frankly - that still doesn't entirely explain your results - just thought I'd throw it out there.

    -Ken
     
    #48 kdmorse, Aug 13, 2006
  9. donee

    donee New Member

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    Hi Lost...,

    You can do it! Go ahead! Hit the RESET button!!! :D :D
     
    #49 donee, Aug 13, 2006
  10. notjonathan

    notjonathan New Member

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    Hi--and thanks--kdmorse and donee.

    Wow--that's interesting. I hadn't thought of that:

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(kdmorse @ Aug 13 2006, 02:53 AM) [snapback]302487[/snapback]</div>
    If that's right, what had confused me was this part of the 2006 Owner's Manual:

    I had figured that to mean that the reset by touching and the reset by refilling >2.6 gallons would have the same effect. But I sure wouldn't be surprised if that's a bit misleading. The owner's manual definitely has a few editing lapses (For instance, in the section on keys and doors. Some ambiguous or broken sentences like what you sometimes get when something is translated into English but not copy-edited.)

    (Though I thought I remembered some people on other forums bemoaning the fact that they wanted to maintain long-term averages but couldn't--and people were advising them that they'd have to do it the old-fashioned way, by keeping a written record. Maybe that applied to different model years.)

    IN ANY CASE...when I picked up the car after the repair work, all the other special settings had been cleared--like the radio presets, custom navigation settings, clock, etc. The sort of thing that happens when the electrical system is interrupted for repair work. Which was the case here: a headlight, a key sensor, etc., were worked on. (Everything had cleared but the odometer, that is; but I think odometers are specially protected to prevent tampering.) Oh, and when I picked the car up, the mpg reading was actually in the teens. So I figured it had been reset, and would go up. It did--but it leveled off and has been staying in the 23.1-23.5 range. When I last refilled the tank (after the repairs) I checked to make sure that the "X miles" on the consumption screen would reset. It did...so I didn't bother to press the reset button. I think I should leave it as is until my next fill-up, when I'll do the manual calculation. Do you think that's the right plan for now?

    Anyway, I don't mean to belabor the whole issue. Obviously the important thing will be to see what happens when Toyota checks it out. I'm just digging around on the forum for any new ideas, because while corporate Toyota in Torrance tells me that I should definitely take the car in for diagnosis, the dealer service department in Hollywood has advised me that they can't think of much new they'll be likely to find, since they themselves just completed and checked out the electrical-system part of the repairs. (Though they're definitely motivated to try.) So I'm looking for all useful areas to suggest that they might want to look into, based on other drivers' actual experiences.

    Here's a question for anyone at all: once you do reset the consumption screen, how many miles does it take any of you before your average mpg levels off in its most typical range? (I know this varies with changing habits, seasons, etc.) This time, mine rose slowly until it leveled off around 30-40 miles since the (seeming) reset. And it has stayed around the same for the following 50 or so miles.

    Thanks to everyone!
     
    #50 notjonathan, Aug 13, 2006
  11. santoro1

    santoro1 New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Lost In The Hills @ Aug 10 2006, 02:23 AM) [snapback]300701[/snapback]</div>
    Many on this forum have given you great ideas. I read thru them very quickly. I didn't notice if anyone metioned the following... while driving, is the MFD giving you low readings on mpg all of the time. Let's say you accelerate up to 45 mph (predictable low MPG) and then feather the accelerator..You should see an immediate jump in the instant MPG whether it be on the bar graph or the digital reading. Is that happening for you? Or does it stay low..Is there any time when you are coasting on flat groung that the MPG readout goes to 99.9? It should esp at very low speeds. It could be a mechanical problem, but also it could be a miscalibration of the MFD. There is no doubt with all the great info you have received already that you WILL get to the bottom of this. Don't fret it will be taken care of soon, I am sure...
     
    #51 santoro1, Aug 13, 2006
  12. cwerdna

    cwerdna Senior Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Lost In The Hills @ Aug 13 2006, 02:07 AM) [snapback]302482[/snapback]</div>
    Depends on what a "difference isn't all that huge" means to you. http://www.hybridcars.com/air-conditioning-effects.html found that the having the AC on w/a hybrid resulted in 15-27% worse fuel economy.
     
    #52 cwerdna, Aug 13, 2006
  13. ekpolk

    ekpolk What could possibly...

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(cwerdna @ Aug 13 2006, 04:19 PM) [snapback]302664[/snapback]</div>
    Maybe the effect is more severe in the Gen-I Prius, and the Insight, the cars mentioned in that study, but I'm not seeing anything like that sort of reduction with my 04 (Gen-II) Prius. Now, I have not done "rigidly controlled science" but I still think something is wrong with that article. Could be the early cars (note the 2001 date) or some unseen (or concealed) flaw in the design of the study magnifying the effect. There's also a slight ring of propaganda that I hear, as in "some owners complaining that their cars aren't getting anywhere close to EPA..." Well, newsflash, not many cars do. As the sticker clearly warns, the figures are for comparison purposes only. The EPA combined figure for the Prius is 55 mpg. So far, I'm getting 48 in mine (miles per gas calculuations are within 5%), and on a percentage basis, that's about as far as I was from EPA on my previous car. The study also fails to account for the fact that the Prius, under a lot of conditions, really needs you to run the AC regardless, as sucking cool air from the cabin, and routing it to the battery, is what keeps the traction battery at a proper temp. The alleged loss, whatever it is, may be a moot point, as sometimes you simply have to run the AC or the batt won't work correctly.
     
    #53 ekpolk, Aug 13, 2006
  14. donee

    donee New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ekpolk @ Aug 13 2006, 07:02 PM) [snapback]302679[/snapback]</div>
    Hi Ekpolk,

    Not sure about the Insight, but the 2000-2003 Prius cars had a traditional AC compressor run off the engine. So, when stopped, or in slow traffic, the engine had to run all the time when the AC was turned on.

    The 2004 to present Prius cars have a AC Motor/Compressor, which runs off the traction battery, and the system has variable speed and a closed loop feedback control. The compressor itself is supposed to be a more efficient design as well. So, the engine can power down as the AC is running on the battery.

    In slow and go "regular" comuting traffic and 90 degree outdoor temps, and indoor temp set to 80, the difference I have noticed is about 3 or 4 mpg. This is because there are usually times when the car is up to speed and cruising, and the engine is running a little faster than without AC to recharge the battery. In stop and go, as the AC is working longer, the mileage hit can be more, probably about double. The engine can come on when its not needed for moving the car, to recharge the battery. Also hit is about double at 100 to 115 degree F THI then at when in the 90's. So, get caught in a traffic jam in 115 degree F temps, and one could see 40 mpg for that trip then a more normal 55 mpg at 75 degrees in slow and go traffic without the AC. Set the AC to 65 on a 95 degree day, would be similar to setting the AC to 85 on a 115 degree day, I would expect.
     
    #54 donee, Aug 13, 2006
  15. Sarge

    Sarge Senior Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Lost In The Hills @ Aug 13 2006, 02:38 PM) [snapback]302615[/snapback]</div>
    Hi Lost,

    I have just been catching up on this long thread...

    One thing I am not clear about is whether you have actually pressed the Reset button yet or not on the consumption screen? I know it was suggested by an earlier poster...

    I have an '06 as well, and I can confirm that when you add 10L (2.6gal) or more fuel, the "trip meter" on the consumption screen auto-resets, but the MPG (or L/100km) does not. And yes, it does take a couple seconds for all the fuel 'pips' to appear, just as it takes a bit of time for the analog fuel gauge to register in a conventional car. The Canadian Prius is in L/100km & KM's, but I am sure the reset works the same, except in the metric Consumption screen, the "tall bars" are bad and "no bars" are good! ;)

    Basically, if you have never reset the consumption screen, this will give you a lifetime average. Of course, an average get progressively tougher to increase the longer it goes!

    I assume your Prius is brand new, so your car is still being broken in, you are new to driving it, and you are doing mostly short trips. My guess is your short trips are actually in the 35-38MPG range(?), but since it had some "wasteage" from the dealer delivery & repair shop, you are still trying to make up for that, so the average is increasing very slowly...

    Just as others have already said, my suggestion would be to reset the meter, and then take a long drive somewhere (30+ minutes) and see if you get different results...

    Just a guess on my part... ;) Hope that helps!

    Kevin
     
    #55 Sarge, Aug 13, 2006
  16. ekpolk

    ekpolk What could possibly...

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    donee:

    I forgot about the "traditional" belt driven AC on the previous Prius. I can see where that would really mess you up. Even with the new system, it's just a more efficient way to run the AC, not of course, the proverbial "free lunch." I'm still new to this Prius "game" and have not yet been caught in a really bad, really hot traffic jam, but I drive I-10 regularly, so it't only a matter of time. I'll check my numbers carefully when I do.

    Lost:

    Please do be sure to let us know what they come up with on your car. Oh wait, you didn't get the twin turbo V-8 Prius did you? That would explain the problem. . . :p [​IMG]
     
    #56 ekpolk, Aug 13, 2006
  17. Godiva

    Godiva AmeriKan Citizen

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Lost In The Hills @ Aug 13 2006, 01:38 PM) [snapback]302615[/snapback]</div>
    No.

    I think it's a waste of time until you hit the reset button and take it out for a drive longer than 10 min.

    It's been suggested repeatedly.

    I've suggested it twice.

    There is a lot of what you've done and counters to suggestions. I don't hear 'Okay, I hit the reset button and drove on the freeway for 30 min. The screen did this, and this is the current mpg for 30 miles.'

    Maybe someone from Priuschat in your area should just drive over and do it for you. Then give you some driving lessons and operating lessons on the different screens and resets.

    I'm beginning to go with Grasshopper on this post.
     
    #57 Godiva, Aug 13, 2006
  18. DaveSheremata

    DaveSheremata New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Aug 13 2006, 10:38 PM) [snapback]302797[/snapback]</div>

    Lost in the Hills - I kind of agree here. If you try this out, you very well might find that there is no problem at all, and you can rest more easily about it :)

    I was also very reluctant to hit the reset button too, wanting to have a "record" of the overall fuel economy - but my dismal mid-thirties mpg was a little too much for me to bear - so I did it - I hit the button. Then a great thing happened - I realized that I could use the reset button as a way to experiment and learn more efficient Prius driving techniques! Since then, I hit reset whenever I have an mpg under 50.
    Of course, I do a lot of short-stop city treking too - which is really the worst for mpg. Today was horrible - 7 separate sub 2 mile trips and down in the mid 30 again!


    Hope this helps!

    Dave
     
    #58 DaveSheremata, Aug 14, 2006
  19. notjonathan

    notjonathan New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Aug 13 2006, 07:38 PM) [snapback]302797[/snapback]</div>
    Hi Godiva--

    I hope you'll accept my sincere regrets that I've been so frustrating to you.

    The sad fact is that I haven't been able to leave the house at all since all this great information was first clarified for me yesterday. I have some people really counting on me to finish a long (and sort of overdue) writing assignment, and I've had to let that be the round-the-clock priority right now-- even though I'm desperately tempted and eager to hit the road and try out all the great suggestions I've learned here.

    Also, regrets that with my head so wrapped up in work (this forum has been my only coffee break) I made a full-on lapse in neglecting to answer that key question from you, and Sarge, and Donee, and kdmorse. (And to whomever I've left out: be prepared for me to plead the same true--but dull--excuse.)

    As it happens--yes, I did press the reset button, one time. It was somewhere between around main odometer mile 150 and mile 250. My best recollection is somewhere close to 200, but I didn't write it down. I haven't reset it manually since then.

    (Didn't make a note because I actually reset it by accident, while trying to wipe dust off the screen. It definitely reset--and at the time, I was so frustrated! Mr. Brand-New Prius Owner here, I was dying to track my total mpg, and I thought this would throw it all out the window. Well, I'm learning a lot more about how that works now, I guess.)

    It may--or may not--have been reset again when the electrical work caused everything else to reset. I was figuring that it did--but only because, as I mentioned somewhere, when I picked up the car after the repair it was reading in the teens; since then it rose to the current level and has stayed within that 23.1 to 23.5 range for some time now.

    To cwerdna-- hi. Your information looks really pertinent...

    ...because it could explain perfectly the difference between the 29-ish readings I was getting before the accident and what I'm getting now. (What I meant by "not all that huge" was that the difference wasn't huge enough to make me want to forego air conditioning. And I promise not to cling to any hopes of the same mileage I'd get without A.C.)

    To ajs:

    The instant reading bar sure seems to be working exactly as you say it should.

    Anyway, gang, sorry I didn't answer that pesky "reset" question sooner. And please know that as soon as the significance of a manual reset was clear to me, then had my answer been "no"-- had there never been any manual reset-- I'd have immediately put all my further questions on hold until I could try that. (Now I'm keen to reset it once again--intentionally, this time-- on my next drive.)

    So the reasons I've kept fishing aren't that your help isn't appreciated or isn't used--just the opposite. It's awesome support. And since there'd been at least the one reset around the midpoint of my current mileage--and since the service manager at the dealership was welcoming, but wanted to advise me that he hadn't dealt with this issue before--and since the Toyota company people (the ones who first told me, sounds like something isn't performing right)--since they were also the ones who said, look on the forums: maybe someone out there has had the same experience--well, all that is why I'm keeping at it.

    Clearly it's a puzzling situation--and Toyota says they're committed to solving it--but I have strong inkling that the answer may come from somewhere like here. Or at least some crucial clues--the stuff worth figuring and testing and eliminating before I take it in.

    Like just now: cwerdna's note seems to have put at least one part of the puzzle neatly in place for me--the A.C. difference that I could only speculate about. That's pretty important. If we factoring that in, it means we now know at least that the performance has been essentially consistent before and after the repair work (which coincided with the start of A.C. season).

    So, thanks for all the terrific, continued help...and whatever patience you can muster. Because of you all, I am...

    a little less Lost In The Hills

    P.S.: I think I should mention that I have taken 3 or maybe 4 one-way trips of 45-70 minutes on pretty open freeways, spread out over the 500+ miles. (I'm not counting return legs when the traffic was slow.) I wish I could tell you the exact mpg I was getting by the end of those trips; I think it was around 33-35mpg. In any case, I mention it because I guess it's at least some part of the overall average. (Or maybe not, if this is a computer problem...) Meanwhile, I've printed up a whole bunch of mileage record forms and put them in the car. I only wish I'd get a chance to use them, already!
     
    #59 notjonathan, Aug 14, 2006
  20. notjonathan

    notjonathan New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DaveSheremata @ Aug 13 2006, 11:18 PM) [snapback]302893[/snapback]</div>
    Hey, Dave. I was noodling with that last tedious, windbaggy novella when your note went up, so I didn't see it until after I finally posted, later. But I hear ya--and now I'm even more revved up about hitting that button right away.

    Maybe I'll go do it in the morning--even though the car won't be leaving the driveway. At least it's a chance to sit in the driver's seat. When I was a kid, that seemed just about as good as driving. And it's another chance to use that no-key key...which still blows my mind.
     
    #60 notjonathan, Aug 14, 2006
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