Update on James Hansen

does he drive a prius?

 

"sun would be cooling"

Wrong ideas just jump off pages and hurt my eyes

Not cooling - not getting its magnetic field in so many localized twisties.

Who is it gets to decide how much things should be dumbed down for mass market? Not Seth Borenstein I hope.

This was attributed to Severinghaus but I can't quite bring myself to troll him about it.

 

More like, "Does he drive?"

I mean, I like the fact that our new car uses a lot less fuel than the old one, but try as I might I can't convince myself that anything with empty seats and air conditioning is doing the planet any favors.

 

if we're alive, we're killing the planet. it's only a matter of degree.

 

Some recent issues with the HV battery in my 2007 HyCam have caused me to look at proposals for HV battery replacement. I am trying to recondition the battery. But it has left me wondering about the potential environmental footprint of 2 NiMH batteries for many hybrids on the road today. I am curious. Is the environmental footprint of the fuel saved by a hybrid battery failing at 10 years/120K miles more than environmental footprint of the HV battery production itself?

TIA.

 

Fuel savings amount to about 18 tons of CO2 in 120 k miles.

I do not know envtl. footprint of battery manufacture. Perhaps someone will say. Metals go in, but they are apparently mostly or fully recycled. A pure guess that $100 worth of electricity is required. It surely could not be $1000 if a replacement battery retails for $2000.

$100 electricity based on US (not Japan) data leads to a half a ton of CO2 emission. compare to fuel savings above.

EDIT - using other numbers $100 electricity could be a ton of CO2. Not half a ton.

Again this is not a complete analysis. Looking around web for better work, I found a May 2013 reference to a famous study called "Dust to dust" that old timers here will remember as being debunked long before 2013. But myths are durable - perhaps even more so than big batteries.

 

Toyota still pays bounty on batteries although it may be less than $200 now and in other countries. Other car mfrs??

Press releases here and there about retired batteries used for electrical grid support. But what fraction goes thataway vs. recycling??

Landfilling, I feel confident, is fate for about none of these batteries.

And lay off those Congo kids, Bob-O

 

Thanks for the info. I was also wondering about emissions (GWP) with mining and the eventual dumping of these batteries in the landfill and streams once there's no more demand for NiMH (and in 2 or 3 decades for LiIon, once some other battery tech becomes prominent) and manufacturers are not mandated to receive and recycle them for free. I wish Governments would charge a recycling fee for every consumer product sold and then accepted them for free for recycling, that way protecting landfills and streams, rather than leaving recycling to market forces which don't care for the environment.

 

we can't even pass a bottle bill in a blue state.

 

That’s because the myths are even more recyclable than the batteries

 

Global nickel mining about 2 million tons per year (but seems to vary a lot). About 70% goes into stainless steel, which seems to be a moderately well-recycled category. Long typical service lives, but a market for melting exists when that ends.

Secondary batteries took ~5% of nickel when I first looked about a decade ago. It is probably higher now, but 10% may be doubtful.

Other nickel goes into superalloys. Aerospace and outer space stuff.

As so often it is hard to infer energy consumption of nickel ore mining. Just now a kilogram of nickel costs about USD$13. But If a Prius battery has 20 kg, that becomes $260. If all that money was for electricity (CO2), it may represent as much as 2 1/2 tons. But it cannot possibly be all.

If a Prius battery has 20 kg, $260, it also makes a $200 bounty looks like short sheeting. But Toyota has got to make a buck here or there.

In any case, secondary batteries will recycle not landfill, especially in future when more numerous. Bob W is offering less than it might appear with his shovel. Knows it ain't gonna happen.

 

Well 2007 Camry is not the best case to salvage, as far as calculating footprint..
Let's say a 2018 CAMRY getting 50 MPG vs. say 35 MPG without hybrid.
You save about 800 gallons gas over 150k miles.
My thought that probably pays off in eco sense.

 

Thanks for the info. I wonder which is more detrimental to the environment, between NiMH and LiIon. Or which is more easily recyclable?

 

Lithium batteries have several different chemistries, differing in recycle-trouble. NiMH is easier than any of those.

Looking into this I learned of company named Toxco. They are tooling up for large-scale battery recycling for when the fleet grows.

It seems hard to rank ugliness of metal-ore extraction. Ni and Li may both be around the middle. Gold is a real stinker, sorry to say. If coal belonged in this group it would win for sure.

 

I’m not sure how much should be read into this, the US government categorizes Li batteries as ‘non-toxic’. I believe Ni batteries are categorized as ‘toxic’.
However, both should be recycled and treated properly.

 

Bisco!!! So funny with comments. I don't think he drives even a VW. He's kinda looking for publicity maybe.

 

Hybrid batteries can be used as power storage devices even after they are no longer suitable for automotive use. The balance between cells is not so critical for lower instantaneous power draws apparently. I've seen articles where Nissan batteries are being used that way. Probably because there are so many Nissan batteries that have become marginal because of the way they don't cool them.

 

Have read many times that some traction batteries were getting retired into grid storage. But no one makes a list it seems?

Biggest drawback of this application appears to be combined recharge/discharge efficiency. It just adds to other inefficiencies in power generation and transmission.