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Brakes done at 60k and again at 63k before me. Brakes still not right. Now 73k. Please help

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Main Forum' started by DS-1 OBS, Nov 18, 2017.

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  1. DS-1 OBS

    DS-1 OBS Junior Member

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    Bought the car at 63k knowing dealer did brakes before we ever met. Within first month had rattle noises coming from wheels. Dealer said shims were missing. Rattle gone but brakes are creaking even in park. Backs feel sticky and lock up easy. Talked to Toyota. Found out brakes also done at 60k at different dealership. My records only show the brakes done at 63k with my dealership. Also a caliper. Does anyone have any clue what might be going on here? Two dealerships are related btw but not the same
     
    #1 DS-1 OBS, Nov 18, 2017
  2. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk EGR Fanatic

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    Can you be more specific, about what was done? Pads replaced, or? Was the front, rear, both?

    Dealership said "shims were missing", I'd assume means the shim plates directly behind the pads. So did they replace them?

    Regarding "also a caliper": it had problems, was rebuilt, replaced, or? Was that front or rear?

    What's your situation? Do you for example have a garage or carport, floor jack, basically the wherewithal to have a look yourself?
     
    #2 Mendel Leisk, Nov 18, 2017
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  3. DS-1 OBS

    DS-1 OBS Junior Member

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    took several attempts over the course of a couple months for dealer to figure out it was missing shims after my purchase. Records show at 60k brake job~rotors turned and new pads. brake job at 63k~New rotors pads and rf caliper and possibly bracket.
     
    #3 DS-1 OBS, Nov 18, 2017
  4. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk EGR Fanatic

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    Was this front brakes only?
     
    #4 Mendel Leisk, Nov 18, 2017
  5. DS-1 OBS

    DS-1 OBS Junior Member

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    Front and rear both jobs
     
    #5 DS-1 OBS, Nov 18, 2017
  6. DS-1 OBS

    DS-1 OBS Junior Member

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    up to date on brake recall says toyota
     
    #6 DS-1 OBS, Nov 18, 2017
  7. 5 Speed

    5 Speed Member

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    so when it was missing the shims they rattled but did they stop OK? I can't imagine that they wore out in that short of a time without shims or the shims caused the brakes to lock up. Outside of the noise did they do anything else strange when braking?
     
    #7 5 Speed, Nov 18, 2017
  8. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk EGR Fanatic

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    Ok, thanks.

    Again, and apologies for appending my first response multiple times, you might have missed my last question:

    Do you have the wherewithal to have a look yourself, ie: a garage or carport, with a decent slab, a floor jack, some safety stands? It'd be good to have a look for yourself.

    One thing: it's very easy, for mechanic unfamiliar with 3rd gen Prius rear brakes, to reinstall the caliper on pads and rotor in such a way that there's constant drag. Dealership mechanics shouldn't fall into this category, but you never know.
     
    #8 Mendel Leisk, Nov 18, 2017
  9. MelonPrius

    MelonPrius Senior Member

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    I know you mentioned rear brakes, but can a basic mechanic easily handle front pads? I recall reading where the 12v should be disconnected on some brake work, but don't recall which jobs and why.
     
    #9 MelonPrius, Nov 18, 2017
  10. DS-1 OBS

    DS-1 OBS Junior Member

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    Front right caliper replaced.
    *says may need bracket
    pads rotors replaced front rear
    all prior to my purchase not my request. prior to ever seeing the car.
    rattle noise was my complaint.
    shim kit added also new pads and clips *Front only.
    *symptoms now~ creaking, still or moving. Rattle still in rear and inconsistent braking feel. sometimes sticky. changes when wet conditions. starts to lock up very easy in rear and very sensitive front and rear.
    Complained to service. they seemed to brush it off or think I want new brakes cause rusty. Now I've talked with salesman. he pushed it up to manager now they want another chance to fix it. during all this discovered the first brake job I had no idea. and toyota had no idea of 2nd brake job due to not toyota dealer. but they are related. use same system. it's their used car dealer side. so seems very suspicious and information I find says prius getting brakes that early is a red flag and not once but twice. and now I will be 3 times
     
    #10 DS-1 OBS, Nov 18, 2017
  11. DS-1 OBS

    DS-1 OBS Junior Member

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    sorry for my responses or missed questions.
    I have checked myself before ever bringing it back. I could not see anything loose. or out of ordinary. I am mechanically inclined and have done several brake jobs. Used to restore cars. Everything to me seems correct
     
    #11 DS-1 OBS, Nov 18, 2017
  12. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk EGR Fanatic

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    Both the front and rear brakes are easy DIY. The only caveat, it's tied to the whirring sound you hear pretty much every time you open the drivers door: that's brake system pressurizing, and if it were to happen when a caliper is off the rotor, it would likely pop the piston right out.

    A second issue, it's not good for the car's computers to detect excess brake pedal travel, say immediately after a pad replacement. Safest approach: disconnect the 12 volt neg cable at the start, and when done, tromp the brake pedal multiple times, removing excess play, and then reconnect neg cable.

    The one extra wrinkle with the rear brakes, you need to ensure the caliper piston pattern is oriented like an "x", so that pin on back of inside pad is between the spokes. And that it's firmly seated (pedal pushes), stays there. The piston will attempt to rotate when you push the parking brake, and this pin being lodged between the spokes is to prevent this happening. If the piston does rotate, the spoke will ride up on the pin, and the brakes will drag royally, from then on.
     
    #12 Mendel Leisk, Nov 18, 2017
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  13. DS-1 OBS

    DS-1 OBS Junior Member

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    Now they want me to bring it back for the 5th time and let them take it to a toyota tech on their toyota dealer side. Why they didn't do this to begin is beyond me. not sure if they just want to cover something up or actually find and fix the issue. this is all new to me. never had brakes respond or feel like this. Thought was the prius but does it in neutral and or parked. So definitely something up with the brakes. Thought was due to rust but come to think I've had cars sit for years and blow the rust off in a few runs and brakes feel fine. but that's conventional cars. Am I missing something. Should I just tear down and replace myself. or could this be beyond just brakes
     
    #13 DS-1 OBS, Nov 18, 2017
  14. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk EGR Fanatic

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    Try raising the rear of the car (with the front wheels chocked), make sure the parking brake is released, and see how freely the rear wheels turn. You should see slight drag, due to it being disc brakes, but with a good push the wheel should easily spin a turn or two. If they're really stiff, it's a sign of the above mentioned caliper piston spoke pattern misaligned. The caliper piston, when being put back on, should be oriented thus:

    upload_2017-11-18_7-10-31.png

    I'll attach the Repair Manual section on brakes.
     

    Attached Files:

    #14 Mendel Leisk, Nov 18, 2017
  15. DS-1 OBS

    DS-1 OBS Junior Member

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    *I have lost mpg significantly from 50s to 30s. but the temp has also dropped to 40s and under. I'm told that's normal.
    *nothing ever feels hot or seems to be dragging after long drives to my touch of wheels brakes.
    Had to get used to the prius slowing down fast on it's own. but now you got me thinking maybe that's my back brakes dragging. I think it's my regen slowing me fast tho
     
    #15 DS-1 OBS, Nov 18, 2017
  16. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk EGR Fanatic

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    It could also be neglected caliper pins, dried up lube. Maybe 60K was this car's first brake job? It seems like Prius brakes are being neglected, because owners equate the necessity for a "brake job" with low pads. In fact the schedule is to do a serious inspection every 3 years or 30K miles.

    If you open them up, read through the above attachement, disconnect the 12 volt neg cable at the outset, and have something like Sil-Glyde Brake Lubricant (for relube of caliper pins) and Permatex Anti-Seize (thin application, on faying surfaces, pad backs, to shims, to caliper).
     
    #16 Mendel Leisk, Nov 18, 2017
  17. DS-1 OBS

    DS-1 OBS Junior Member

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    Do you think I should let the dealer try again. Seems so strange to me. And yes the pins being checked and lubed is what I read is usually all that needs to be done. could this be the creaking noise. literally sounds like a ghost is walking in grandma's attic. I've never heard on any brakes in my life. Can make the sound in park. really loud on bumps while breaking "creeeeeaaak" thought was my suspension but have been told it's coming from my caliper/brakes not suspension
     
    #17 DS-1 OBS, Nov 18, 2017
  18. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk EGR Fanatic

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    There goes our "smoking gun". Hmm. Anyway,

    If it is the misaligned rear caliper piston, what you'll likely see:

    1. Lots of drag, just trying to spin the wheel.
    2. Scoring on outside of rear rotors (possibly)
    3. Inner pad will have severely bevelled wear
    4.. Maybe 50% of the inside face of the rotor will be rusty, due to pad barely contacting

    Sounds like suspension to me too, but I'm not that knowledgeable. Not knowing the car's history, could be from an accident??

    Still, if your mpg is down severly, and the car doesn't seem to roll as easy, I'd again suspect rear brake drag. Easy peasy check is raise the rear and spin wheels.
     
    #18 Mendel Leisk, Nov 18, 2017
  19. DS-1 OBS

    DS-1 OBS Junior Member

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    Just feel like next time they will give me car back with no wheels and say they fixed the problem.
    also side note maybe related. My wheel bearing is bad on same wheel that had new caliper. could this all be related from something not being correct. wheel bearing at 73k? I love my prius. but I want to love it more!
     
    #19 DS-1 OBS, Nov 18, 2017
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  20. DS-1 OBS

    DS-1 OBS Junior Member

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    The creaking is NOT suspension. I have to be very clear. Is litteraly the brakes doing it. even does it by itself when it does it's park brake prime thing. while car is off. no movement of vehicle suspension or steering. Can make it happen on demand parked, moving over bumps, on incline or decline holding brake. like the pads are screaming while being crushed. "help meeee" *The fly
     
    #20 DS-1 OBS, Nov 18, 2017
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