VW Faces $17B Fine for Emissions Scam

the last bullet point says: major health benefits are expected from alternatives to fossil fueled vehicles.

 

I had not read about this before: The Ozone Weekend Effect | Berkeley Engineering

Bob Wilson

 

Maybe, but that preceded a very recent study which also empirically shows that reducing NOx emissions increases the production of secondary organic aerosols (PM2.5):

Carnegie Mellon researchers find new vehicle emissions to be deceptively clean-Mechanical Engineering - Carnegie Mellon University (abstract available at link following article)

The question from a public health perspective is whether lower ambient levels of NO2 and nitrate PM2.5 (from NOx emission reductions) offset the higher ambient levels of ozone and SOA PM2.5. Not clear at this point.

Plus, I was responding to your question about ozone.

 

The problem with Harley's study is that recent data from EPA itself do not support a transition to NOx limited conditions in California (or all of Region 9 for that matter) since that report was issued (2009). According to the Carnegie Mellon study, VOC:NOx ratios are about 3.5:1 now, higher than the 2.4:1 ratio Harley says delineates VOC-limited and NOx-limited conditions.

In fact, ambient ozone levels in general have not decreased from 2010 - 2015 in spite of a 4 ppb decline in ambient NO2 (>10% decrease):

Nitrogen Dioxide Trends | National Air Quality: Status and Trends of Key Air Pollutants | US EPA (NO2 ("West"))

Ozone Trends | National Air Quality: Status and Trends of Key Air Pollutants | US EPA (Ozone ("West"))

Also, ambient PM2.5 levels have actually increased slightly there between 2010 and 2015:

Particulate Matter (PM2.5) Trends | National Air Quality: Status and Trends of Key Air Pollutants | US EPA ("West")

 

Slight change in quoting to make sure we're on the same page.

. . . that recent data from EPA itself do not support a transition to NOx limited conditions in California (or all of Region 9 for that matter) since that report was issued (2009). According to the Carnegie Mellon study, VOC:NOx ratios are about 3.5:1 now, higher than the 2.4:1 ratio Harley says delineates VOC-limited and NOx-limited conditions.​

I just was unaware of this part of exhaust chemistry. I got the impression that the SOC particles are formed post exhaust, not directly but indirectly from what comes out the tailpipe. The VOC, right?

My understanding is modern catalytic converters work when the engine cycles the raw exhaust gas between slightly rich with hydrocarbons and slightly lean with NOx. Each is captured by separate parts of the catalytic converter and effectively combine with the other to 'refresh' the catalytic converter beds. The output should be CO{2} and H{2}O with trace amounts of the others. So I'm scratching my head wondering where the SOC particle feedstock material, the VOC, comes from given what the tail pipes should be exhausting?

In fact, ambient ozone levels in general have not decreased from 2010 - 2015 in spite of a 4 ppb decline in ambient NO2 (>10% decrease):

Nitrogen Dioxide Trends | National Air Quality: Status and Trends of Key Air Pollutants | US EPA (NO2 ("West"))

Ozone Trends | National Air Quality: Status and Trends of Key Air Pollutants | US EPA (Ozone ("West"))

Also, ambient PM2.5 levels have actually increased slightly there between 2010 and 2015:

Particulate Matter (PM2.5) Trends | National Air Quality: Status and Trends of Key Air Pollutants | US EPA ("West")​

I see the "West" and possibly "NorthWest" seems to have plateaued whereas the other regions continued to show a steady decline or flat-lines under the National Standard. So I'm wondering if microclimate or non-vehicle exhaust chemistries may be involved in what we're seeing in the 2010-2015 data in the "West" and "Northwest?"

For example, there had been a drought as well as significant wild fires in west and northwest in the 2010-2015 period. Could there be a relationship between the drought/wild fires that is independent of the vehicle exhausts?

Source: NASA - NASA Images of California Wildfires

Speculation on my part but I'm wondering if C14 assay techniques applied to collected SOC might give a ratio of fossil to current organics such as might come from wild fires?

The reason is I remember back in the early 1970s when the DC-Norther Virginia areas would have 'gray air days' and the news reported it was from the trees in the Smokies. I remembered because at the time, I was a Marine and 'gray air' impacted my fitness running, +3 miles every other day. Back then it was called 'smog' but many of the side effects were consistent with high ozone rates. I had a Tesla coil at home in the 1960s and gave the family a bronchial condition until we figured it out.

Looking around, I feel like we've wandered down a rabbit hole so let me propose a way out.

My understanding is excessive VW diesel NOx emissions still needed VOC to form ozone. To the best of my knowledge, CO{2} would play no part but CO and other volatile organic compounds (VOC) could. I'm also under the impression that the West coast has suffered significant VOC injection from their drought related wild fires but I'm not sure about the quantity. The release of CO from gasoline tailpipes should be negligible but it is not something I've studied. The elephants in the room, the west coast refineries and that massive methane, storage leak.

Bob Wilson

 

Yes, that is correct. NMOG is what VOCs are usually referred to in vehicle exhaust.

I'm not sure either. You may know more than I do about that, but it appears there are still sufficient NMOG emissions to form SOA, even from Tier 3 vehicles.

Yes, it appears other regions in the U.S. are less VOC-limited with respect to ozone formation than the west.

Even then, according to EPA, NOx emissions have decreased by 49%, and ambient NO2 levels have decreased by 45% (annual) from 2000 to 2015. VOC emissions have decreased by 19% and ambient ozone levels have decreased by 17% nationwide.

Wildfire probably contribute some NOx as well as a lot of PM.

Could be. Would be an interesting study. Not sure how much VOCs would come from a wildfire.

Agree on the Smokies. They were "smokie" long before the were any significant anthropogenic emissions, mainly because of SOA (I suspect).

Thank you for your service Bob!

The VOC:NMOG ratio is something that seems to be in pretty significant disagreement. For example, I was taught in a graduate-level atmospheric chemistry course (a long time ago!) that the delineation between NOx-limiy=ted and VOC limited conditions is 8:1. Harley says 2.4:1. A recent study by Fujita suggests 10:1 (abstract available at Projected ozone trends and changes in the ozone-precursor relationship in the South Coast Air Basin in response to varying reductions of precursor ... - PubMed - NCBI).

Now I'm not sure what to believe!

 

Engineering ethics, sometimes considered an oxymoron, but sometimes there is a sting: Former VW engine chief arrested as emissions scandal hits 2-year anniversary | Ars Technica

On Thursday, Wolfgang Hatz, former engine chief for Volkswagen and Audi and later the head of research and development at Porsche, was arrested in Munich. With Hatz's arrest, the slow-moving investigations of Volkswagen Group in the aftermath of the 2015 emissions scandal seem to be gathering momentum, according to reports from German paper Süddeutsche Zeitung and the New York Times.
. . .
Hatz was the engine chief at Audi between 2001 and 2007, right around the time that the company began implementing a software-based “acoustic condition” workaround for its diesel engines. According to court filings and academic research, Audi allegedly wanted to get rid of the rattling noise that some diesel engines make on startup, so it created software to inject extra fuel into the engine on ignition. The company then worked to mask the extra emissions created by this fix, and from there, the emissions cheating software apparently grew as the company demanded different and increasingly hard-to-achieve features for its diesel engines. There’s evidence that the Audi software was then borrowed by Volkswagen for its line of diesels, which were aggressively marketed as “clean diesel cars” in the US.​

I take no joy in this. Did these guys and their families have a special, private air supply?

Bob Wilson

 

Sadly, most pollution that comes out of tailpipes causes the most damage near the roads/highways.
My guess is their houses were not right next to high traffic areas. Not sure about Germany, but in the US that is typically lower income people.

 

Does that hold true for NOx? I was under the impression that it was somewhat less localized than that (although altitude of the emissions affects things as well - for instance, too-tall smokestacks emitting high NOx in Ohio have been known to cause smog in NYC).

Particulate matter, though, definitely is a very local problem, but the PM emissions controls actually work on these diesels from the factory (and the way they're designed, cheating there can't work). They might fail and be bypassed by the owner after the fact, but that's not the manufacturer cheating.

 

My guess is that NOx emitted from high altitude smokestacks disperse much more than ground level emissions.
Not sure how quickly NOx disperses at ground level. I agree though, that it happens much more quickly than particulates.
This paper does indicate NO2 is higher in high traffic areas than rural areas: https://cfpub.epa.gov/roe/indicator_pdf.cfm?i=7
However, there is nothing quantifiable there.

 

Guess what I found when I revisited the page:

STEENMAN ASSOCIATES


NOT FOUND, ERROR 404
The page you are looking for no longer exists. Perhaps you can return back to the site's homepage and see if you can find what you are looking for. Or, you can try finding it by using the search form below.​

Then I asked Google and found: Steenman Associates @greenhuman: Portland to Portland Green Test Drive. What we did and why we did it.

Same old dreck. Regardless, I sent him this note:

Hi Ed,

I know you're a gear head and the last time we exchanged e-mails was about the 'clean diesel' disaster. My understanding is VW is installing charging stations and I've moved on from the Prius to plug-in hybrids.

The BMW i3-REx is an impressive, four-seater with 168 hp, rear wheel drive, carbon fiber body on an aluminum frame. Truth be told, it has taught me all sorts of bad habits because it is a fun ride. I bought an 'end of lease', 2014 a year ago May and other than some first model year problems, it has been a blast. Once coded, my wife, her two dogs, and I drove 700 miles each way to Oklahoma and back over a Labor Day holiday. But a broken motor mount bolt led to replacing our backup 2010 Prius with a 2017 Prius Prime.

I bought the Prime in Rhode Island and drove it 1200 miles to Huntsville, 56 MPG, using radar-based, dynamic cruise control to follow highballing trucks. The Poconos were in the clouds yet the radar cruise control meant I was safe, able to stop if the truck in front found an accident. Four seats work for my wife and I and it is actually quieter, more efficient, and handles better than the 2010 Prius. At 121 hp net, it is not a pocket rocket but it is no slouch either.

Retired, about 80% of my driving is electric around town at half the cost per mile of gasoline. When I go cross country, the BMW gives ~40 MPG and the Prius Prime over 55 MPG. Now that VW is installing chargers, we'll have more options for both plug-in cars in the future.

If you get a chance, try the BMW i3-REx and the Prius Prime for an extended test drive. Although the Prime is more sedate, sometimes a quiet ride is nice too. Caution, if you drive the BMW i3-REx with the windows up, check the speedometer as it is too easy to speed (not caught yet!)

Later,
Bob Wilson
Huntsville, AL​

Bob Wilson

 

Not getting the Page Not Found error today, Bob. That said, it looks pretty darn gobbledygook to my simple brain.

 

I was monitoring the Portland-to-Portland drive when it first occurred and I thought their videos were lame. No Go-Pro, in car videos but 'interviews' at different VW dealers. Almost no technical content and the reported MPG verified they were trying to run the Gen-2 Prius at what they hoped would be inefficient speeds. They didn't realize that would require going +85 mph but that was their problem. It reminded me of Gertes marathon stunts that took too much time and labor for such modest results. However, I am convinced Ed is a gear head who likes to drive so I sent him that note.

BTW, I'm am starting to think about making my own Toyota Prime commercial since their ad companies are so lame. After all, how hard could it be?

Bob Wilson

 

Thanks for the US perspective. There would be previous few who could do it better than you, BTW!

 

not hard at ALL! Lots of video tools now days .... but the list of fan-made commercials being made for their favorite car, sets a pretty high bar -

Another Fan-made Tesla Commercial | PriusChat

so make sure you do your car justice
.

 

Good news: Feds Approve Fix for VW’s 3.0-liter Diesels | TheDetroitBureau.com

Volkswagen has been given the go ahead to repair about 38,000 VW, Audi and Porsche SUVs equipped with 3.0-liter turbodiesels the German maker had originally rigged to illegally pass U.S. emissions tests.

Earlier this year, U.S. and California regulators approved similar repairs for about 326,000 VW and Audi products using a 2.0-liter diesel engine that had also been altered. All told, VW has admitted using “defeat device” software on nearly 500,000 diesel vehicles sold in the U.S., and more than 11 million cars and trucks sold worldwide.

It has since agreed to about $30 billion in fines and penalties, though the approval of a fix for the larger engine could save the German carmaker as much as $1 billion, according to a letter released by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency today.​

Then I'm reminded there has been a change of 'leadership' in the EPA. Did the goal posts move?

Bob Wilson

 

Bob - it would have been reasonable if the last email you shot over to Ed included a request to acknowledge if he'd given a rats - he'd be honest enough to admit at least a 6 mpg deficit - had his diesel not been rigged to cheat for over 8,000 miles - otherwise all he did was tell his readers that one car was more fun to drive. Thus, he might as well have driven 8,000 miles in a turbo Carrera instead of the VW. In fact if he did it in the Porsche , he wouldn't have needed the 8000 miles to figure out which car was more fun. Last I checked VW & Porsche are kinda same company anyway. And the Porsche is CARB compliant.

.

 

Anyone seen this before?

No more Toyota diesels, says boss

SM-G900I ?

 

his personal opinion, but i kinda like this guy, didier leroy. i wonder if anyone is listening to him.