Featured Model 3 has 310 mile range

There was an announcement from Toyota that they will have a BEV out in 3 to 5 years that will be using a solid state battery. Solid state can handle the abuse of fast charging at such rates. As cutting edge technology, these packs will cost more.

Then from Toyota's behavior with hydrogen, I don't expect them to make the investment into the charging infrastructure to allow charging cars at such fast rates.

 

But they're still just Rich Folk Toys for now.

 

True, but affordability of electric vehicles in general will improve as battery technology improves. In addition, the average American may not be able to afford a new Tesla, but after it's been a few years and there are used Model 3s on the market with significant percentages of battery life remaining, there may be lots of folks who can afford a used one.

 

at a net of 20k, a bolt can be almost anyone's toy, and fits into many household driving patterns, but they just don't know it yet.

 

I've seen used ones on eBay in the low $40K's & high $30's ..... & we have punks around here driving MSRP $60k+ long bed diesel quad cab 4x4's that never tow, or see anything but an asphalt road. Just curious, if one goes to the little truck forums & noifiy those folk w/bigger trucks that they are just driving rich folk toys .... doesn't that just mean, 'richer' than me? After all, the cheapest brand new Model S costs in the $60's. What is 'rich'. Some people can't even afford a car. Anyone who has one thus, is rich to those who have none. The term is quite subjective.

there are entire forum threads devoted to the tech of aging cells/decreasing capacity loss. This has been our issue of greatest interest, because we are owners of one of the most horrible BEV traction packs - the Rev1 Nissan Leaf. Ironically, & to most people's surprise, Nissan was the very 1st to implement lithium tech in cars - back in the 1990's - in the days of the Ev1. They were all leased, & Nissan was the very 1st manufacturer to yank their offering, due to unreliability.
So did they learn anything? Or did they just offer up another POS. Well, the Leaf is air-cooled, & one needn't waste time to say any more.
With literally billions of collective pure EV miles now - racked up by Tesla roadsters, model S's & X's ... 100's of 1,000's of cars world-wide - no other manufacturer has nearly as much data on long term /real world cell performance. Some of the old-timers have bee nice enough to post their odometer readings (per month or quarter, I can't remember) & then they graph high/low/individual capacity loss, based on range - & it's pretty impressive. The many cars now well over 150k miles & evev 200k miles are only down ~ 5%. That - for example on the original S85 with a EPA 270 (iirc) mile range when new - now 'only' goes ~256 miles (ymmv).

So here's the kicker (imo). Just recently, Tesla admitted (only after numerous owners complained that their supercharger speeds were being throttled down from over 120kw's to never any faster/higher a charge start speed of 90kW's) yes some cars are being permanently throttled. In its defense, Tesla says their data shows 'some' of the regular Uber long-range owners are supercharging exclusively - logging 50k kWh's - 80kWh's & more on their packs ... & thus, to preserve capacity longevity, the throttling is necessary. Tesla has been tight-lipped about the algorithm used - that permanently initiates the new supercharge status. From observations, owners can't determine if the lowered supercharger capability is determined from # of initial supercharger hook hookups, or supercharging regularly all the way to full, or any other identifiable thing, other than lots and lots of supercharging. Even owners who are almost exclusively CHAdeMO quick charging find that their exclusive CHAdeMO use initiates the new lowered supercharge rate - & yet CHAdeMO seldome if ever, charges any higher/faster than 50kW's at startup.
Apparently it's took many of these marathon drivers a bit of time to figure out what was going on. That's because if the supercharger stall right next to their car is occupied, the max charge rate will throttle due to power being divided among the nearby vehicles. >30K miles/yr is obviously the minority Tesla driver, but they are PO'd.
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The only people that don't think these are rich folk toys are those that have the money...same for buyers of big PUs, sports cars and luxury liners. The Bolts and Model 3s will help transition to upper middle class, but that doesn't change the "real market" these vehicles cater to or the "real" limits they have. As stated, they are great vehicles, but not prime time for blue collar families or less. It is what it is...and NO ONE has to "justify" their toys...not even Bubba trucks...so stop trying.

P.S. - Respects Bisco, but there is no way a new Bolt will net out at $20K...even with tax credits and Chinese algebra.

 

Careful with those numbers. They are not taking into account people who pay cash or put down a sizeable amount or have a valuable trade in, right?

10-12% of new car buyers pay cash (based on an article I read a while ago)

Mike

 

just hope more will buy new cars so in 10 to 15 years i can buy a used one from them

Pixel XL ?

 

I'm not trying to skew or spin. No care is needed. The percent of median income or bellow households buying a new car often small. Cash for new cars varies quite a bit depending on the economy. Only 8% of the new car buyers paid cash in 2006. I don't have recent figures, perhaps you do. 2011 - 23%, 2012 - 17%, 2013 - 15%. Percent Cash buyers increase and decrease, because car buying goes in cycles, interest rates, and new loan rules (2008 rules changed, 2011 extremely low interest rates were being offered). Let's take 2012's number which is high, and multiply it out for last years average loan value. $30,700 and 68 months x 83% (percent of new cars taking loans using 2012 as guesstimate) - $25,481. There are now over 100 million auto loans being serviced on new and used cars.

Now how many new cars do you think median and bellow households can purchase in a decade. The answer is not nearly as many as those in the top 20% of income (incomes over $100,000). Sure some how cash rich and income poor, aka as retirees, or get cars subsidized by their parents or children (my friend bought his mom a car she couldn't afford) that are in that top 20%.

One reason for this is median family income has not gone up nearly as fast as new car prices. This may put the price of the tesla model 3 well within the range of those people that actually buy new cars, especially if cost + maintenance + fuel is lower than that for the typical SUV or Pick up truck that has been purchased.

 

How about $19,345 before taxes and fees for $22K out the door?
http://www.chevybolt.org/forum/55-2017-chevy-bolt-ev-pricing-dealers-orders-tracking/4593-how-much-were-you-able-get-below-msrp-17.html#post156418

 

rob, it's an uphill battle.

 

For some, the glass isn't even ¼ full ... not that i can't be the 2nd biggest skeptic in the world.

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So an anonymous new person on a Chevy Forum with only 4 posts states that the "tax payers" paid $13,500 and GM/Dealership paid $6,950 for their new $40,000 before TTL Chevy car...then they used a credit card? Sorry, but that sounds like more than half full...of it. Otherwise, everyone in California would own a Bolt were it true. Oh wait...I forgot about having less time, restricted travel and more money for that second car or rentals to retain ones travel freedom.

Current EVs are very good (at least better) and in time they just "might" be everyday vehicles...when/if the charging tech and infrastructure ever catches up...but for now they are just limited use feel good toys for the well to do. Some choose EVs, some choose big block gas hogs...but it is a choice...and there is nothing wrong with either when you have the money.

As to everyday unrestricted vehicles, I'll stick with our 2 Prii and the Hybrid RAV4 for now. That's pretty Green in anyone's book.

 

That's nice for one person in Southern California, but I believe Frodoz larger point still stands. These cars just aren't attainable for everyman yet. Try to get that deal in Mississippi, lol, and I don't think Chevy's even selling them here yet.

 

the premise was affordability, not availability. bob wilson flew from alabama to rhode island for an 'unrestricted' prime.
same can be done for a bolt, we got lots of them up here, cheap money too.

 

Please don't confuse your situation and/or many situations of people you know to be the 100% rule for everyone. Everyone's situation is different. No one on this thread is claiming that they are where they need to be long term to totally phase out gassers. That is far in the future when technology has developed further.

 

@frodoz737 ironically I just noticed your signature has large implications on this topic which you seem to be ridiculing

 

We are talking about affordability. Are you saying I can go to SoCal and get that deal? Including the $6k from in-state entities? I think not. I just made the offhand comment that Bolts aren't even available in MS yet.

 

How about Rhode Island? This dealer has a Bolt listed for $25.5k
Woonsocket - Chevrolet Bolt EV Vehicles for Sale

 

ca incentive is $2,500. AFAIK, there aren't any states that give $6K, but most - if not all, do require residency. Wait a couple years and you can pick up a used deal that will save you way more than state & federal money ever could.

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