Car & Driver Says Prime Ugly, Too Slow

Why bother with anecdotes when statistics are available. According to TrueDelta, the reliability of the 2016 Prius is still top notch. At this point problems are just a few minor defects covered by warranty. The Prius has really shined in long-term reliability and there is no reason yet to believe that will change.

 

MPGe isn't a good way to compare electric cars to ICE cars. It's just a familiar sounding metric but it's only useful in comparing EV's to other EV's. This is because the cost of energy isn't constant. The cost of 33.7kWh of electricity is almost always very different than the cost of a gallon of gasoline. Right now, 33.7kWh of electricity costs me $4.38 while a gallon of gasoline costs me $2.10. This is because gasoline is a primary energy source while electricity is (mostly) converted from another primary energy source at an efficiency that's on the order of 50% (less for some sources, more for others).

$/mile would be a metric you could compare across energy types, but that would require a fixed cost of energy.

 

stigmata...

 

The Monroney sticker does include an 'annual savings' and 'total fuel cost' on it with the assumed cost for the fuel. At least some of the plug ins also include kWh/100mi. The regulators did put some thought into this, and acknowledge a direct comparison isn't easy by refining the sticker. Consumers and journalists can misuse or ignore the MPGe figure, that doesn't negate its usefulness as intended.

Do bleeding tires reduce or increase rolling resistance?

 

Easy.
Because "statistically" things are sometimes different than they are real world.

That's about as deep as I can take the point outside the political sub-forum, except to say that people are generally uncomfortable with data that runs counter to their preconceived notions.

Priuses have been around for almost two decades, and there is NO DOUBT that they generally have an above average rep for reliability.
I've said loudly and often that they are just about THE BEST car that you can buy as a long term transportation appliance - providing that you don't need to tow anything large, travel on unpaved roads, drive in snow deeper than about 4-inches regularly, or have more than 2-3 kids - depending on the sub-type.
However (COMMA!!!!!) just as the G3 was plagued with teething problems when IT first came out, so might the G4.

Different "car ratings" companies have different modalities for saying "this car" > "that car."
J.D. Powers, for example, has some twenty categories that they rate for "most reliable car" in 2016, because sometimes a car is a truck, or a truck is a smokin hot convertible, and it would be unfair for JDP readers to get their little feelings hurt because the $123,400 red two seater is less highly rated than the $13,500 econobox just because of trivialities like "efficency" and "leg room."
"Oh" you say?
You are skeptical of this claim???
Well you should be.
People don't rate things because they don't have anything better to do.
They get paid to do it.
The Prius v (wagon) was mentioned in the compact multi-purpose vehicle category, and the Fiat 500 was also named for "best city car" which means that Prius fanboys have two glaring bones to pick with JDP because (a) the Prius Wagon is neither compact, nor especially more multi-purposey than the cooler version.
Also a Prius 'c' is probably a more reliable "city" car with 100,000 miles than anything made by Fiat with 500 miles on it....which is what the "C" in Priussy stands for.
Fiat 500's are named for the number of average miles between breakdowns.

CR tends to be VERY Toyota friendly, but they regularly get bashed by readers in this forum for bashing Priuses.
I had never heard of TureDelta before today, and when I tried to look them up I probably got raised eyebrows by the humorless boffins down in IT because the Googles thought I was looking for "True Detective" but as near as I can tell, TD is nothing more than collaborative anecdotal evidence.
Or?
Another poll.
So...................
When you cherry-pick this poll with that poll and toss out the data that doesn't leave you feeling all 'validated' then you have......
The 2016 election.....oh wait.
Oops.
Wrong sub-forum, I meant to say that you have a thread with OVER 150 posts vehemently defending the Prime against charges that were not made in an article that very few of the posters actually read.

Maybe I'll re-read it.
The mind is always the first thing that starts to slip....according to the polls.

 

Although, for the mass market, I think the Prime's cargo and seating configurations will hurt its appeal. And, when Volkswagen of all companies can manage to package 8.8 kWh of battery, a fuel tank (albeit smaller - 10.6 gallons instead of the 11.3 of the Prime), and an independent rear suspension with no real cargo space compromise (I mean, you lose the spare tire, but you lose it in the Prime, too), and the Prime has that incredibly awful battery lump... (I'm not saying the A3 e-tron is a good PHEV - it's horrendously inefficient in both charge depleting and charge sustaining modes - but it's a well-packaged one.)

The Volt's seating configuration will also hurt its appeal, but it has a relatively normal cargo area, at least, if you don't care about the back seat. (Now, I really don't like the Volt, but a lot of people don't care about the issues I had with it.)

 

the ionique might be a better example, but we won't know until there are enough on the road.

it's hard to say another car has better packaging, even though it stinks.

 

Ioniq also has better packaging based on what I saw, and I'm expecting comparable efficiency numbers on paper. The A3 e-tron didn't even have that.

 

Those looking at the Volt on dealer's lot are likely going to compare it to a Cruze, Civic, or Corolla. Its rear seat is compromised, and costs a lot more. In return, it gives some of the versatility of a hatchback, better gas fuel economy, and plug in part. The Volt delivers really well on that last one, and that's its main appeal. Even with 200+ mile BEVs coming, they will still have limitations that will exclude many. Which leaves the Volt as a decent fill for the starter EV niche.

The Prime is going to be compared to the Prius by shoppers. Where the Prius has a history lauded as a good all around car, the Prime's packaging does hurt that all aroundness. The Toyota and Prius nameplate will help it, and incentives getting it less than a Prius will have a boost, but I don't see it going more mass market than the Volt as is.

Prius sales are around 100k a year. Fix the packaging of the Prime, and it has a chance to reach that. I think the Prius uniqueness won't let it get much beyond that though.

The EPA numbers are out; started a thread in Other Cars. The PHEV ones won't be there until it is ready for release though.

 

Prius sales WERE around 100K a year.

Last year's sales dipped by 12-percent.

These are CY15 versus CY16, so some G3's might have been hitching a ride with the G4s and vice versa.
Also, Prius defenders will quickly note that gas prices are depressed but I've always thought that this was another way of saying that "some people will only drive a Prius if they HAVE to."

FWIW, I think that the Prime is a little better looking than the G4 (it's not hard) and at least one member in this forum got a less than $25,000 price by getting a Prime which is WAAAAAY better than getting a base G4.....so the Prime has the potential to be the better Prius of the two even without the fifth seat-belt.

 

21k after tax credits, that's helping to drive sales.

 

RATE verses VOLUME

Prius gen-4 rollout took awhile. They weren't available right away in 2016.

There was also a stop-sale for a few weeks in the fall.

 

Prius sales have been going down since the last peak in in 2012.
Toyota Prius Sales Figures - GOOD CAR BAD CAR

I do not see the gen4 sales climbing back to those heights.
The incentive boosted Prime is going eat a bunch its sales, and there is more hybrid choices in form factors people desire more.

 

gas prices have been down, how many times do we have to go through this?

 

I ignore JD Power. Their Vehicle Dependability Survey covers cars that are only 3 years old, i.e. just out of warranty.

There are several good sources of car reliability statistics that you may not be aware of:

1. Long-Term Quality Index this free site has data on power-train problems (engine, transmission and hybrid batteries) over 1M US trade-ins. This is a huge amount of objective information on the long term durability of vehicles more than 3 years old. It has charts showing problem rates in different model years of each car. Prius rates as the most reliable "compact car". Anyone thinking of buying a car they hope to keep for a while should check here first.

2. TrueDelta -- Real Car Owners Driving Real Car Information this free site has data from member surveys from over 100,000 members. It covers all model years (if they have enough data to be statistically valid). The primary data it gives is "repair trips per 100 cars". What to count as a repair trip is well defined. It also gives the odds of having a "lemon" for each of the models. On truedelta you can also see what repairs have been reported and how much the repair cost was. I recommend that all car owners join and report their repairs. Prius rates exceptionally well here as well.

3. http://www.anusedcar.com this free site provides data from the German TUV reliability reports. It has data for European cars that are not available in North America, as well as global cars like the Prius. A new report comes out each year with fault rates of cars that are 2-3 years old, 4-5, 6-7, 8-9 and 10-11. Prius data is a little scarce here since Prius sales have been low in Europe, but where there is data, the Prius scores very well.

4. http://www.consumerreports.com I understand they have reliability information expressed as little dots, but I am no longer a member so I can't see it. Prius tops their ratings.

Statistics are available. There is no need to rely on anecdotal (mis)information on car reliability.

For fuel usage, there is Fuelly - Track and Compare your MPG and Spritverbrauch berechnen und Autokosten verwalten - Spritmonitor.de (click the Union Jack to get the English version of the site). There is no need to rely on "official" gas mileage ratings from the EPA, NEDC or other questionable test cycles. See what real users are getting. That's probably close to what you will get. Prius rules in fuel economy for non-plug-ins, of course.

For safety information, IIHS-HLDI: Crash Testing & Highway Safety has a lot of great data on crash test results, headlight tests, child seat anchors and advanced safety features. For European data, there is http://www.euroncap.com. It shows what injuries an adult, child or pedestrian might get in various types of crashes. They tested the pedestrian detection of the Prius and gave it 5 stars. You can download a detailed report for each tested car. There is also Car Safety Ratings | Car Safety | Crash Test Results | ANCAP for Australian safety test data. They use some of the NCAP test data but also do some of their own testing.

Good, increasingly detailed, info is available on how safe different cars are. Again, the Prius leads the pack.

 

I'm considering the purchase of a Prime or Volt. I stopped by the Toyota dealer the other day to test drive a Prime and they didn't have any available. It seems every Prime in the entire US is already spoken for. Bummer. Dealer recommended I write a letter to Toyota informing them of my interest in buying a Prime. I was surprised at such a suggestion. The Prime seems like a hands down winner I didn't think Toyota would need justification for producing more of them. While I really like the Volts electric charge mileage it's still a Chevy...not convinced it's up there with Toyota. But if I can't buy a Prime the Volt seems to be the only alternative.

 

The first 40 Primes in the allocation for Denver are scheduled to arrive toward the beginning of April. A couple of dealers had some early (probably by trading for them) and I got to test drive one twice at the end of November. Mine is supposed to be in that first allocation. I ordered it immediately after the first test drive. It's much smoother and quieter than my 2004.

 

What did you think of it? I took a Gen 4 for a test drive and the salesman asked me when I was thinking of purchasing. My response: When will you have a Prime available to purchase?

 

Let me repeat:

If you're still in the market by then, and they still aren't available to test drive, you can probably come try mine.

 

LOL! Well said!