Car & Driver Says Prime Ugly, Too Slow

Money is not part of an efficiency analysis of miles per unit fuel. And consider that the exercise I outlined starts with the same one gallon of gasoline for each car -- so whatever processing went into one, went into the other one ... right up to the combustion.

This really isn't meant to be complicated. Imagine that you have a 50 MPG ICE car and a 60 MPGe EV at home, as well as a generator to make electricity. The ICE and the generator operate at the same 35% efficiency.

Where do you place your gallon of fuel ? In the 50 MPG Prius, or the generator for the 60 MPGe EV ?

 

You're making a similar mistake - you're including the primary energy for one source (gasoline) but only the secondary energy consumed for the other source (electricity).

 

Do we have actual data showing that consumers usually buy base models of these cars?

My perception, although not backed by data, is that base models of luxury brands are popular as a cheaper way into the badge, but otherwise, middle or high trims of lesser vehicles are popular.

In any case, it might not be Car & Driver's fault that Advanced was compared to Premier, rather than Plus versus LT. Automakers tend to fill their press loaner pools almost entirely with fully loaded models, meaning it's really Toyota and Chevrolet's fault there.

 

It's simple, I'm talking about the efficiency of the car to move from point A to point B on fuel that the driver put into the car. MPG, with or without the little e, is used to measure that. The energy used to get the fuel to the pump or outlet is beyond its scope.

Then your example is a straw man.
We don't burn gasoline to make electricity for the grid, and emergency use gasoline generators aren't the norm when it comes to powering a home. Only 6.5% of the national grid mix is petroleum. That includes Hawaii where over 90% of their electric comes from oil, and Alaska, which doesn't have a statewide grid, leaving remote towns on diesel generators. If not diesel, an oil power plant burns heavier fuel oils. Diesel and fuel oils won't work in a Prius, and making them into usable gasoline will use some of the energy they contain.

Aside from an emergency with extended power outage, and maybe the one or two Supercharger sites that get extremely busy around the holidays, no one is using gasoline made electric in their BEV.

Then there is the fact that none of the plug ins cross shopped with a Prius get worse than 84mpge. The rest are a minivan or a luxury power hybrid; the likely alternative bought instead of those will be getting worse than 50mpg.

I have never had time of rate billing for electric, and I suspect that is the norm for many homes.

Charging at peak times will increase NG burned at peaker plants, but the EV charging at night will help put those base plants at a more efficient operation.

Last I checked our electric, it was around 16 cents with all fees and taxes.
Regular gas is $2.50 to $2.60 here, and we part of the densely populated Northeast.

 

Then the cost of operation of the Prime will be lower than the Volt for all driving ranges given those prices.

 

Some do, some don't. Feel free to use NG for the exercise. Or diesel

I'm sorry you do not like these fuels, but efficiency does not care.

 

Neither does performance.....which was the entire point of the article.
The thread title accused C&D of calling the Prime ugly and slow, which is a bit of a stretch......but I believe even THEY said that Uber drivers would be better off using a Prime because it's the better ecobox.........that is......if you can actually USE a Prime for Uber.

Accounts vary for that.

Only the cost for fuel.
There are other costs as well.
Some that Toyota has a pretty good track record with, and others that they do not.

Insurance is one example.
I'm sure that a few rear fender-benders involving that carbon fiber hatch and curvy glass won't help......BUT Toyota used to have bullet-proof reliability ratings....which help, even though anecdotal evidence lately probably lower the G4's reliability to "bullet resistant."

GM as a company has a middling reliability rating, but the Voltistas claim much higher than average reliability, some of which is the Tesla effect.....also from what I'm reading about lately.

 

i think you need 5 seats. maybe stick someone in the hatch. oh wait, that's too small now.

 

Oh well.....only a complete moron would use a new Prime for Uber duty anyway.

Much better to get an off-lease Pip!!!!
Proven design.
5 Seats.
Economical.
Cheap.

Let somebody else pay for the depreciation!!
Sorry Bisco!! Just drive it until the wheels fall off - or sell it to a friend on PC at a killer price!!

 

Aren't you glad you started this thread, Linda?

 

I quit reading that rag when I read a 1983 article in C&D saying the 1983 Celica with the slanted tail lights was a racist statement reflecting Japanese origin. Writer revealed his bigot views! Now I read it occasionally when the only other choice is Women's Day while in a waiting room, but that's about it.

I agree that I don't like the black grill, but the magnetic gray blends well with it.

 

My reason exactly for choosing grey

 

Using the EPA numbers, I calculated the Volt-advantage, donut:

	mile	Volt	Prime
1	1		yes
2	31	yes
3	92	yes
4	93		yes
5	420		yes

• Used MPGe and MPG to calculate the gallon equivalent and gallon
• All other metrics from www.fueleconomy.gov
• Used the smallest total range, Volt, to end the model

Bob Wilson

 

So, I'm going to attack this two different ways.

Per the latest eGRID data, national average is 1150.3 lb CO2 equivalent per MWh electricity generated, or 17.586 kg per 33.705 kWh electricity generated. (Note that this is national average, your mileage may vary.)

A gallon of gasoline (33.705 kWh) releases 8.887 kg of CO2.

From there, we can use the MPGe vs. MPG figures to determine CO2 emissions of the Prime vs. the Volt, using national averages, and the graph looks like this:



The Prime's CO2 emissions are always below the Volt's, even when the Prime has to resort to its ICE. In fact, the Volt is emitting (17.586 / 106) = 165.9 grams per mile on electric, where the Prime is emitting (8.887 / 54) = 164.6 grams per mile on gasoline.

Note that this does not hold true if you're in a cleaner grid region than the national average, or if you're either on a more efficient energy plan than the average for your grid region, or are generating your own renewable energy - as soon as it gets any cleaner than the average, the Volt's electrical usage will have lower CO2 emissions than the Prime's gasoline usage.

A second way to go at this is simple dollars per mile. As of October 2016, average price per kWh was 12.45¢, or $4.196 per gasoline gallon equivalent. Average price per gallon of regular gasoline was $2.358 on January 16, 2017 (latest data).



However, the Prime still, just, remains cheaper to run than the Volt - the Volt nearly catches up on electricity, but doesn't quite make it.

 

So pretty much, in the 31-92 mile range, the Volt is cheaper to operate.

Oh, and that 31-92 mile range captures the number of miles the majority of Americans drive each day. #VoltVictory

 

No - the Volt is NEVER cheaper to operate as long as the ratio between the cost of gas and the cost of electricity is about 20 or less. So, for example, if the cost of electricity is $0.15, the cost of gas would have to be over $3.00 before the Volt has an advantage in fuel costs for a trip of any length. Even once that ratio is exceeded, the Volt's advantage is very narrow until it's exceeded by quite a lot.

 

Right, and that is the problem with BWilson's table of gasoline use. It does not show the degree of advantage. For the most part it is narrow, so the occasional long can flip the overall result to the Prime.

 

Are we taking into consideration the random ICE flareups Prime owners have been experiencing even when they have plenty of EV range left?

I think we car safely say the Volt is superior to the Prius Prime if you care about an unadulterated EV driving experience for 50+ miles before plugging in. Only way a Volt's ICE will turn on is if the HV battery charge is depleted, or if the temperature dips below 15 degrees F. I read that the Prime owner's manual has a whole plethora of conditions listed where the ICE may turn on, and then a catch-all "other conditions" line. That'd be pretty frustrating if I was a Gen 1 PiP owner looking to upgrade to a Gen 2.

 

They aren't random, and they are very few and far between.

If we want to really be picky, the Prime actually has a much larger advantage because in actual use, many more are exceeding EPA numbers with a Prime and trailing them with a Volt.

 

So the majority of people (almost 80%) have a one way commute of less than 20 miles. Which could be seen as a round trip of up to 40 miles. Just over 50% have a commute one way of less than 10 miles. So a majority (jsut over 50%) have a round trip commute that fits inside the Prius's range. And with charging on both ends 80% of commuters would fit within the Prius's range. The more efficient use of power by the Prius would definitely give it a leg up on the Volt in that area. For the just about 20% of people who have one way commute in excess of the Prius's range then definitely something else may be better. And for the 45% who don't fit within the round trip range of the Prius then the lack of charging on both ends of the trip may make it less useful if you want to stay purely EV.

My round trip daily is either 8 miles or 14 miles depending on where I commute to. Both well within the Prime's range, in fact I am driving today on the left overs from yesterday because I apparently didn't seat the plug properly last night and woke up to a charge interrupted notice this morning with no time to fix it.

FYI - Source: Commuter Driving Statistics – Statistic Brain