Hybrid Racing stories

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(donee @ Jun 11 2006, 10:00 AM) [snapback]269473[/snapback]</div>

You are not going to fit a 1500ft/lb battery motor of any kind in an automobile in any sort of meaningful package.

No it won't. You think you know what you are talking about, but you are just as stupid all most of the other Prius owners on this site seem to be. Put down the automagazines, and take an engineering class.

The 2JZ-GTE in a Toyota Supra has a cast iron block. Ditto for the RB26DETT in the last iteration of the Skyline GTR. You going to tell me that both of these cars suck? Wanna bet an all aluminum (pretty much all GM uses for their v8s nowadays) LS1 weighs substantially less than your gasoline engine and your electric motors put together??

More pseudo intelligent crap you are posting to try to sound knowledgable. Ever look at a front engine/rwd car as of late, or do you just seek to stereotype them for ease of understanding? Notice how the engines are pushed back towards the windshields, and the wheelbases are brought closer together? Why are they doing this? Perhaps to reduce the polar moment of inertia. I don't know what being front or rear drive specifically has to do with the vehicle's inertia characteristics, but a front wheel drive car is not going to ever outhandle a similiar rwd car.

No its not. A Galant 4 banger I rented a long time ago felt quick at really low speeds, but truth was it wasn't. Truth is, a Prius is not going to be any kind of performance vehicle on the road built today, period. Not even to 6mph. If you wanted to race an Enzo, there is NEVER going to be a single point in the race where you will accelerate harder than he will. Your battery motor might produce peak torque at zero rpm, however you do realize that seldom in an all out race someone launches there car off of idle. Even with the battery motor's torque combined with the gasoline engine's torque, the Prius comes nowhere NEAR the Enzo in torque production. The Enzo would take the Prius at launch, at beat the hell out of it up to any speed. The Enzo also has considerably better area under the curve.

No it won't. I don't understand how the Prius owners on here think that a Prius is good at taking curves. I have had enough seat time in a Prius to know that they handle pretty badly, even for an economy car. There is no way even a beat nice person 20 year old Fox Body Mustang is going to have any problem outhandling a Prius. NOTHING about the Prius was built for performance, and it shows.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ Mar 24 2006, 09:25 PM) [snapback]229738[/snapback]</div>

This is borderline retarded. You guys understand horsepower is horsepower, regardless of how it is being made, right? Horsepower is a measurement of total work being done in a given ammount of time. 500hp>300hp. Given equal curb weights, 500hp will ALWAYS be faster than 300hp, unless some really, really crappy gearing is utilized in the 500hpcar. Sorry guys, that is the way it is. Check out how they seperate power classes in any automotive motorsport. It is always by HP, or HP/lb. Never torque. Torque moves a vehicle, and it is what you feel while driving, but hp is how much of the torque is being used over a given ammount of time, i.e. RPMS.

HP=torquexRPM/5252. Pretty simple.

The Viper has a pretty strong area under the curve. It is going to accelerate hard at any point in it's powerband. Cars don't race at peak hp. They pass over it typically just before they shift. Area under the curve is what is important (i.e. in simplier terms, the engines average hp over the duration of it's powerband).

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(caliprius83 @ Jun 9 2006, 01:58 PM) [snapback]268693[/snapback]</div>

No, the Prius does not have better handling than a beat up old 5.0. The Prius has more body lean than I have experienced in a car in any recent year. Even the torsion rigidity challenged Fox Bodies could still handle well for their day, and would easily outhandle a Prius. The Prius is a 3000lb front heavy front wheel drive car with tires nominal bigger than a bicycles. Nothing about this setup spell success. Straight line goes without saying. Fox Body Mustangs are not what I would consider fast anymore, but I watched a friend drive an absolutely bone stock one to a tune of 14.8@94mph. That would obliterate a Prius. Wouldn't even be close is not strong enough of a statement.


The bike is complete and utter bullsh*t. No way in hell did you hold anywhere near a bike, even an old "slow" 600cc (or comparible) bike. The bike would likely have no problem smacking the Prius around at half throttle. If any of you have ever ridden a sport bike ("crotch rocket"), you would know this. I don't even need to know the model of bike to know it wouldn't even be close. My mom's Tahoe has no problem taking out Prius'.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(San_Carlos_Jeff @ Jun 9 2006, 06:35 PM) [snapback]268897[/snapback]</div>

Incorrect. HP wins races. I don't see any diesel Jettas tearing up the drag strip against other econoboxes, and they boast very decent torque numbers for their segment.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(donee @ Jun 10 2006, 09:54 AM) [snapback]269144[/snapback]</div>

A sh*tty automatice takes that much time to switch gears. I know a good one doesn't. A guy trying to get a better time than 750ms is going to need much more practice grabbing gears. That speed sucks as well. This just sounds like more info someone glanced over leafing through an automotive "performance" book, and takes it as gospel. Sorry man, this isn't the case for all cars.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(galaxee @ Jun 10 2006, 06:43 PM) [snapback]269306[/snapback]</div>

Doesn't matter. A Prius is not going to beat an Enzo even to 6mph, unless the Ezno driver blows the launch.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(timeformegaman @ Jun 11 2006, 03:12 PM) [snapback]269581[/snapback]</div>

As a Prius owner, I can't understand how anyone can think the Prius handles well. Maybe if my last car was a 15 year old Accord I might think the Prius handles acceptably, but compared to any other modern car in it's price range, it handles woefully.

Out of all the cars I've owned (Cavalier, Alero, Jetta 1.8T), the Prius has more body roll and less grip than any of them. And that includes the Cavalier.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ZDriver96 @ Jun 11 2006, 02:40 PM) [snapback]269578[/snapback]</div>

Hi Zdriver96,

A shorter car has the opportunity to have a smaller polar moment of inertia. A smaller polar moment of inertia allows a car to turn quicker. A rear drive car has a differential and case, which is about the weight of the Prius battery. But rather than under the rear seat (as the Prius battery is) its about two feet further back. Thus a rear drive car has a higher polar moment of inertia. I am speaking of small polar moment of inertia being advantageous for city manuevering, not the usual racing goal for race track handing. Where a higher polar moment of inertia is good for long sweeping turns.

One racing hack for a Prius might be to move the battery into the front passenger seat area. Sortens the wires, and reduces resistance. Makes the car nearly side ways neutral balance.

As far as the HSD goes, I think you need to do your homework. May I suggest this Oak Ridge National Laboratory reports website : http://lib1.isd.ornl.gov:8182/TSEARCH/BASI.../fqma/tpsext/SF . Select the reports button, and type in Prius for a keyword. Did you know the Prius system design was done with a free bee software add-on to Matlab-Simulink developed by the USA NREL?

And this goes for "timeformegaman" too.

Most car performance guys know that Horsepower is only horsepower at the road. Not in making a clutch hot. This is where the Prius excels. A car engine gets limited by the wheels to whatever RPM if you let the clutch out. The engine wont have power at low RPM. If you keep the rpm up where the enigine has power by slipping the clutch, the clutch gets hot and that energy does not make it to the wheels.

In the Prius, the 5000 rpm engine is available from about 15 mph on. If you run the engine at 5000 rpm, at 15 mph in an automatic transmission call, you are pumping all the momentum of the ATF around in circles. The Prius transmission acts kinda like an electric torque converter, but without the working fluid being very massive (electrons). Old fashion cars may not race at full power in the curves, but the Toyota HSD changes all that. One can invision a vectored thrust all-wheel drive concept using the HSD as the core component. Maybe this is why the next Porshe Cayenne will have a HSD transmission?

I understand Horse Power is Horse Power. What you do not understand is the HSD alows one to use FULL engine power at considerablly lower speeds and without interuption than previous cars. Otherwise, how would a 110 HP beat or at least match a 180 hp car of the same weight to street safe speeds.

I have not been talking about race-track handling here "timeformegaman" with regards to the Prius. I was talking about scooting around a street corner with gravel on it.


Now the stock Prius is hardly a race car. And all these comments assume we think it is. You know what they say about "nice person-U-ME"'ing things. I just think it pretty rediculous to think that the concepts put into the Prius will not end up in high performance vehicles. I just watched the British Grand Prix. How did Alonso know he was going to win? He said he knew he had the fuel economy at a considerally faster speed than the other cars out there from the track testing. This means he knew if they went as fast as he could, they would have to pit an extra time and loose the race. This may be the main reason that Renault has dominated F1 this season.

As far as the motor size. The last AC induction motor I saw that was 60 HP was half as big as the Prius. How did they get a 60 HP motor into the typical transmission casting besides the generator (which is a 1/3 th size of the motor)?. Well, the whole world does not revolve around 60 year old car technology concepts and car duty cycle is intermitant. Out there somewhere, probably in the U.S., there were people coming up with super permanent magnets, and others turned them into brushless motors of incredible capability. In the US we tend to use this stuff for toy RC cars, RC airplanes and Electric Cars that get leased for a few years then shredded. The Prius motor is about a foot in diameter. Double that diameter gives four times the torque, and make it a dual rotor and you have eight times the torque of the Prius motor.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(donee @ Jun 11 2006, 03:47 PM) [snapback]269630[/snapback]</div>

A shorter car theoretically would have a lower polar moment of inertia. But inertia isnt just determined by sheer weight when it comes to automobiles. It can be largely manipulated through suspension, tire, and sway bar adjustments. the stiffer and more neutral the body roll, as well as suspension dampening, the less inertia the car will exhibit on initial turn in. the prius was designed to be an everyday car. i can garauntee you that the engineers who designed the car were not worried about having a low polar moment of inertia for a car that, in city driving, will not top 45-50 miles per hour around corners. thats ridiculus. now since consumers prefer a sportier ride these days, the engineers might have thought to put in a stiffer suspension along with stiff chasis to make the car fun to fling around town, but your giving your car credit where it definately does not deserve it. and when it comes to racing, a low polar moment of inertia is essential, not a higher one. ESPECIALLY in long sweeping turns where mid corner corrections are constantly happening, and prolonged traction is needed. the more inertia a car carries in a long sweeping corner, the harder it is for the tires to cope with the heat, therefore resulting in excessive tire wear as well as corner and exit speed, which can cost you the race. and as for the HSD thing, i did do my homework. a little bird in tree flew up to me in a dream last night and whispered that information in my ear and told me that it was credible. so ill say it again, if you change the cheese that you feed your mice, you might get a little more power off the line.

 

Great post, donee.

Welcome to all non-hybrid poster for registering to participate in this discussion. Before you all react in disbelieve, please study how HSD really works and many benifits it offers (other than excellent fuel economy).

The bottom line I see with this issue is, traditional car owners not realizing what a handicap tradition cars are in many situations. To let you know where I am coming from, check out 30-50 mph acceleration (top gear) for Prius and BMW 530i at Car and Driver Magazine. In that test, Prius is more than twice faster than 530i inline-6 225hp. That is just one example how Prius can beat more powerful traditional cars. Even if acceleration is with the downshift (not top gear), Prius still beats the Camry 2.4l by one full second. I also found another link for Mustang GT 30-50 acceleration (top gear) test and it clearly shows it is slower than Prius. Prius can really catch regular cars off guard in many situations, especially for inexperienced manual labor transmission drivers.

The keyword is power delivery. I'll take the car that delivers 90% of it's power 90% of the time over 70% of it's power 50% of the time. This is one of the reason HSD Prius is so fun to drive. Not only it's powertrain is responsive, it also gives the driver power consistantly when it is asked. You'll see many reports of Prius drivers becoming calmer because of this. I guess different preferences for different people but you guy ought to know that a different choice is now availble with the introduction of Hybrid Synergy Drive. We don't group you as organ donors so don't group us as slow drivers.

Dennis

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(caliprius83 @ Jun 11 2006, 04:31 PM) [snapback]269625[/snapback]</div>

YES. Show me your demonstration. I have driven both. You have NO IDEA what you are talking about. A stock 80s Mustang will destroy a Prius in the handling department. You just posted what you did earlier, because you thought it sounded believable to you. Whether it happened or not, is open to speculation.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(usbseawolf2000 @ Jun 11 2006, 05:50 PM) [snapback]269654[/snapback]</div>

Even as a Prius owner, I'd know better to post that.

Top gear tests are that... top gear tests. Any other driver is going to shift down a gear or two to pass. Top gear tests are subjective tests of... well, top gear speeds. The prius has no top gear to test, so it's not really fair to measure it. It's a bit like saying my Commodore 64 (the prius) boots faster than a modern PC (the Mustang/BMW) therefore it must be faster.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(V8Cobrakid @ Mar 15 2006, 10:17 PM) [snapback]225441[/snapback]</div>

He wasnt racing. Do you know anything about cars at all? There is no way even with the crappiest driver that a Prius could keep up with a Viper.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rancid13 @ Mar 24 2006, 06:25 PM) [snapback]229674[/snapback]</div>

He didnt race you.

<--Owned a V6 Mustang. Not a very fast car but would have absolutely no problem beating a Prius.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(caliprius83 @ Jun 9 2006, 01:58 PM) [snapback]268693[/snapback]</div>

He laughed at you after you drove away. You would not beat a 99+ V6 Mustang either.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SMOKKINU @ Jun 9 2006, 06:29 PM) [snapback]268895[/snapback]</div>

Mike get the F off my Prius forum.



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(donee @ Jun 10 2006, 09:54 AM) [snapback]269144[/snapback]</div>

The Prius is not as sluggish as some people would like to think but it is not capable of the things people have claimed in this thread. This thread has served to do nothing but give Prius owners a bad name. Having owned my Prius which I love, and 2 Mustangs I can tell you than Id rather take a lowered Mustang around a curve fast than a Prius with its skinny nice person tires and soft suspension.

The only explanation for some of these peoples "stories" are that the people werent racing and probably just messing with the idiot in the hybrid car trying to race them.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(galaxee @ Jun 10 2006, 04:16 PM) [snapback]269267[/snapback]</div>

You have obviously never hit the accelerator of any car with over 300hp to the wheels.

0-6? Thats because the Enzo will still be sitting with its wheels spinning. Stupid comparison.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(donee @ Jun 11 2006, 04:47 PM) [snapback]269630[/snapback]</div>

A rear drive car may have a differential and case, but just about every fwd car has its engine mounted transverse, with the transaxle running parallel directly beneath it, and both objects are pushed up front. Seems like an even trade off to me. Don't see how a rwd car has much of a disadvantage here.

I understand what you are saying. However, in a race scenario, like the one involving the Prius and the Enzo, the Enzo driver is going to launch at whatever rpm he feels it appropriate enough to keep the tires spinning just enough to avoid bogging the engine. There is no low speed clutch slipping there. If the clutch is getting to hot, the right clutch has not been picked for the application. You can keep the rpms up by spinning the tires, not slipping the clutch.

I understand how the Prius CVT works, and I have actually seen it in person. Until the torque capacity comes way up on a CVT transmission, there will have little viability in the automotive performance world, let alone any serious racing venue. The idea behind them is a good one though.

If a racer wants full power in a corner, it is just a downshift away. Not something that difficult to accomplish, especially with some of the sequential manual boxes on the market now for race cars. Cars don't have full power in the curves, because the tires only have so much available grip, and full acceleration would spell an end to available grip. What you are referring to is Toyota's CVT transmission system keeping the gear ratios optimal enough to keep the revs where they need to be, without a power interrupting downshift. Most accomplished racers do little if any downshifting in a turn though, so this isn't that big of a problem. As I previously stated, accept for maybe very low power race cars, the CVT's racing capabilities will continue to be extremely limited by the units torque capacity .

No, I do undestand that. Constantly variable torque multiplication depending on available engine rpm without interruption of torque to the wheels with a gearshift. What I haven't seen is any actual proof that a 110hp car could beat a 180hp car, given equal weights. 70hp is a huge difference, and even with just a decent 5 speed transmission in the 180hp car, I don't see the 110hp car catching up, especially as the speeds climb, and the electric motor starts having a harder and harder time giving backup to the gas motor.

I was only referring to the scenario that the original poster gave. The one that sounds like it was a fabrication. The Prius should do very well in tight city driving.

I didn't say anything about the technology being bad, or not finding its way into race cars. My point was that in this given situation, with the Prius being the suspect car, that the original posters "stories" were more a result of a creative internet imagination. We can talk theory for hours (and it can be very interesting sometimes), but I have driven a Prius, and I have ridden a bike. Theory doesn't stand up against reality, and the reality is that if anyone has every ridden a sport bike (crotch rocket), there no there is absolutely no comparison to be made. The bike would slaughter the Prius from any speed.

I am sure the electric motors used in hybrid cars will get more and more efficient. The technology is relatively new in this specific application, and technology continues to march ever on.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(milkster @ Jun 11 2006, 01:27 PM) [snapback]269562[/snapback]</div>

This thread to me looks like a joke. And if its not, its not a Prius like my Prius or your Prius, somebody has done something sick to this Prius, and it sure doesnt get 50mpg.

 

i really hope this is a joke.. if not your the biggest bunch of fuckin moron's alive. dont know whats a bigger joke your cars or you racing them.. i'll run any of your prius's in my civic. if you can beat my beater with 225K miles on it then you can run the pick up truck.. i promise none of you will beat that

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Jun 11 2006, 06:07 PM) [snapback]269658[/snapback]</div>

Yeah, I was gonna respond to this as well, but you beat me to it.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(usbseawolf2000 @ Jun 11 2006, 05:50 PM) [snapback]269654[/snapback]</div>

Stop looking stuff up on the internet and go drive a Mustang GT. You will then blush, and delete your post.

30-50 in my Prius doesnt happen painfully slow but it doesnt happen all that fast either. I dont really remember how it felt in my GT but by the time the GT is making its transition from 30-50, it is car lengths ahead of the Prius.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(beenstruck @ Jun 11 2006, 06:57 PM) [snapback]269678[/snapback]</div>

This thread was dumb enough without you in it Derek.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Jun 11 2006, 06:07 PM) [snapback]269658[/snapback]</div>

My point is the delay in shifting which Prius doesn't have. In real life, there are situations where you want to pass without downshifting. That's why they have that test. The comparison I made was with the same mid-size class cars. I wasn't comparing radio control toy car to a mid-size sedan.

Dennis

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(usbseawolf2000 @ Jun 11 2006, 07:07 PM) [snapback]269684[/snapback]</div>

CVT makes acceleration smooth at all times and removes the human error true. But that doesnt make it quicker by any means. Its barely more efficient than any automatic transmission. And any sports car like a Mustang GT or quicker could miss a couple gears and still beat the Prius in a 1/4 mile race.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(gbgirl79 @ Jun 11 2006, 07:06 PM) [snapback]269680[/snapback]</div>

I guess you don't understand the top gear acceleration test. Read my post again.

Dennis

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(gbgirl79 @ Jun 11 2006, 07:13 PM) [snapback]269691[/snapback]</div>

It does make it quicker and the proof is with the comparison between Prius and Camry 2.4l (see 3 prev post). On the public road, how often do you floor the accelerator for 1/4 mile, from standing still? How often do you accelerate from 30 to 50 mph?

Dennis

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(usbseawolf2000 @ Jun 11 2006, 07:15 PM) [snapback]269692[/snapback]</div>

I dont really care, as Ive skipped over pretty much all the facts and numbers pulled off google search in this thread.

Do you think a Prius will beat a Mustang GT in a race, or hell even a V6 Mustang in a race. Yes or No. That was the tone of this thread from the beginning.

You can post all the tests you want and talk about how one car is quicker than another from this MPH to that MPH but in the end the Prius will not beat any of these cars mentioned in this thread.

Ive owned both a GT and a Prius and Id bet my Prius title that from a roll at 30mph the GT easily walks away.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(usbseawolf2000 @ Jun 11 2006, 07:20 PM) [snapback]269692[/snapback]</div>

Ive floored it from a standstill and floored it from 30-50 on both cars, the Mustang is quicker in both scenarios. From what I remember of my GT being at about 30 mph in second gear and flooring it will put you back in your seat a little. The prius just brings on a yawn.

Love my Prius, but its not what you are all making it out to be.

 

I honestly am amazed at the level of BS in this thread, I would think that the closes competition for a Prius would be a 3 cylinder Geo. Its pathetic to see people actually try and talk about 0-6mph acceleration and top gear acceleration, and for a sponsored racing team to have a Prius go 13x mph and everyone is amazed, my LT1 car running on 7 cylinders could hit that with no problem. And has anyone actually taken a Prius to a dyno to see how much of the power those 2 motors are making actually makes it through your great CVT and onto the ground and what kind of torque curve it actually makes? This is ridiculous, as much as i hate mustangs, especially V6 ones, it would easily dog the shit out of a prius and whoever said that the reason they lost to an M3 was because he topped out later is complete BS, he was probably at 1/4 throttle laughing at you the entire time. Whats next? Jump box power boosters instead of N20? Fart cans with magnets on them to increase electrical flow? You all really have no idea what a race really is

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Prius133 @ Jun 11 2006, 07:49 PM) [snapback]269707[/snapback]</div>

I do think my Prius would crack the nice person of a 3 cyl Geo. :lol: People are just getting a little too ansty because the latest generation Prius isnt a total slug. To me its completely retarded the idea of racing, or modding a Prius to race, or adding turbos or Nitrous as has been suggested in this thread. If you have the money it would take (lots) to mod a Prius enough to beat your average sports car, then just go buy a sports car. People are losing their minds.