Why does the Gen3 hybrid battery fail more than in the Gen2?

This is total rubbish. One cell failing is what lights up the red triangle and sets codes.

Too bad you did not show the same restraint with NiMH batteries.

Brad

 

That's a shame if true. The Gen 3 Prius sells at a premium to non hybrids and potentially needing to buy an additional HV pack adds to that cost. In a way, I'm glad I didn't buy a used 2010 or 2011 Gen 3 and bought the 2015 Mitsubishi Mirage instead.

 

where is data showing gen 3 fail more than gen 2?

 

Brad,

I believe the claimed improvement in the interconnections between cells happened about 2006 (in the middle of the Gen2 period). You have to look at early Gen2 modules to check for the difference.

JeffD

 

The only mass failure I noticed in this thread was due to the abuse of letting the cooling fan get clogged.
That is abuse, not a design issue most people need to worry about.

As far as I am concerned, show the proof!

 

Not so sure. The fan is not mentioned in the maintenance schedule, and definitely not easy to access, if you do hear about it. And prone to clogging, especially if you transport furry pets.

I call that a design failure.

 

But it is preventable by the user. Vacuuming should help some.

 

Gen I batteries have just one connection between each cell. The connections are at the top of the plates and inline with the module terminals. Starting in 2004 with all of the Gen II modules a second connection was added between each cell.



These are 2006 modules. All Gen II and Gen III look the same. The dark grey rectangles are access points used to make the second set of connections. Three on one side and two on the other. Gen I battery modules do not have the access covers.

I would not phrase it exactly like that. I would say Gen 3 cars are harder on their batteries and will fail sooner and more often than Gen 2. The signs (data) are there if you bother to look for them. Taxi drivers, hot climates (Sir Lanka), and battery rebuilders are reporting early failures of Gen 3 batteries. There is a storm coming. It's going to take years to get here. About the time Gen 3 really start failing the Gen 2 batteries will be too old and worn out to rebuild. Demand is going up and supply of good modules will go down. Rebuilding is going to be more and more challenging. Years ago it was easy to rebuild a Gen I battery with Gen I modules. The supply of good Gen I modules has dried up. History is going to repeat.

Brad

 

Staying out of the pack by P&G and driving at low load, low rpm with the ice running in full Atkinson mode whenever possible amoung other techniques is how I pulled 10yrs and 160k+ out of an inferior Honda Hybrid Battery. Analogous strategies may become SOP for Gen3 if Brad is right or unloading them before they're 8 yrs old...gives us 5 yrs or so more with our v.

There's no free lunch.

 

My car is only 5 years old, so won't need to worry about it for three years, but I figure there should be used, junk yard batteries available for a while, after mine is off warranty.

Posted via the PriusChat mobile app.

 

and new batteries keep getting cheaper. taxi's aside, i wonder if all the concern justified. the future is difficult to predict.
i'll stand by my post #9, and would like to see some hard data out of sri lanka, or anywhere else for that matter.

 

I

I'm a rebuilder. I have seen several Gen 3 battery failures. The battery modules are harder to work on and seem to have a shorter lifespan than Gen 2s.

 

Very difficult to predict...best to gather as much info as you have time / patience to gather and make your own best judgement. Good luck if you assume Toyota or anyone else has your best interests at heart.

 

Saving the pack is one of the reasons I judiciously neutral glide in both the v
and PiP...mainly to max MPG MPGe.

 

Maybe @san will share the shop he has been dealing with in Sri Lanka. This may be a source of data.

It also sounds like some of the rebuilders are starting to speak up.

In the environment of Sri Lanka and hearing claims of dust along with the fan not being cleaned seems like a reasonable source of a root cause. Now if Toyota would have shared cleaning the fan in their maintenance schedule other than having dealers want to perform the service for north of $200 in most cases.

Could referencing this in the maintenance schedule have prevented premature failures? Possibly. But we are starting to see some reports of what may happen in environments that are not as forgiving.

 

I've found exactly the same here with Techstream, Mendel. Granted low to mid-90's F is about all we see for highs but I typically only use the AC for highway driving, where it doesn't pull down the battery pack. I prefer windows down around town and hate the way AC pulls the battery down so hard. I believe heavy cycling for whatever reason (AC included) or parking windows up in full sun are bigger battery killers than not running AC when driving. Never dared to say this out loud here before so flame suit on for the AC brigade.

Agree.

Thanks for this, Brad. Is the LOWER series resistance in Gen 3 achieved via software play then?

Not here yet but likely on the not-too-far-off horizon. I'd love to be wrong here and will eat the hat of your choice if I am.

We've hardly got any data from our massive North American market other than what we generate as a tiny group of internet geeks. I wouldn't expect much out of Sri Lanka or Greece beyond what's reported here.

Possible I spose. I can't really imagine a dust(dirt) style build-up the likes of which we see pics of pet hair clogged fans. Funny that Toyota issued this Dec. 2011 fan cleaning TSB after never doing so (that I'm aware of) with Gen 2 and then it's another 3 full years before the E0E...

Turning out to be a pretty good thread after all, IMO.

 

then begs the question: why does the gen 3 battery fail more than the gen 2?

the o/p did not ask if the gen 3 was more susceptible to failure.

the o/p did not ask if the gen 3 has a less robust design than the gen 2.

the o/p is talking about actual failure rates. i believe that is why the o/p has received so much push back.

i do believe that it is possible that toyota redesigned the gen 3 battery to last 10/150, so they don't have to cover too many warranties. that is sop in all manufacturing. the gen 2 was probably over engineered because there wasn't enough history to design less robustly, not so taxi drivers could get 500,000 miles out of them.

on another note, the hybrid battery fan is not susceptible to clogging unless shedding animals are carried regularly. there is no need for more filters, easier access or recommended routine cleaning in 99.9% of cases.

 

It may not be simply the accumulation that may be the problem. Think about the abrasiveness and affect on balance of the fan and over a period of time with more coming in, what it could potentially do. While it might not starve flow like hair or fur, it's affect might be worse on the workings of the fan.

But I am speculating without hard data on the topic.

I agree that this has been an interesting thread to watch and participate in.

 

it seems like every time someone checks their fan ho doesn't have pets, there's nothing there but a light layer of dust.
might as well clean it while you're in there, but i don't see it impeding cooling.
another data point, the gen 2 has less filtration.

 

My fan should be loaded with dandruff.