1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

Crude Balancing

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Technical Discussion' started by voltech444, Oct 2, 2016.

  1. voltech444

    voltech444 Junior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2016
    25
    36
    3
    Location:
    Pontiac, MI
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    Hello, i've been lurking here for over a year and this is my first post. I've found a lot of helpful advice here so thank you all for everything!

    I've repaired 3 gen 2 battery packs successfully without balancing. Each pack had one or two bad cells, replaced them and they've been working fine for months. Now I have people that want to pay me to repair their packs. So if i'm getting paid I want to do things right, or at least the best I can. I'm working on a gen 1 pack, my plan is to replace with all gen 2 modules from 2 different packs. I want to balance the cells and im trying to figure out a simple way that isn't too time consuming.

    What im thinking is discharging the cells to the lowest common charge that would still be within spec for the pack. So if I have 38 cells that are within 7.4-7.8v discharge each cell individually down to 7.4v. Then simply reassemble the pack and reinstall. Then by running and driving the car the cells can charge back up and discharge. If all the cells are at 7.4v to start wouldn't they stay pretty close when charged back up by the vehicle? I know this is not the same as conditioning the cells through charge/discharge with an appropriate smart charger. But could this be a more crude way to balance a pack or does it have to done by discharging down and charging back up to the same voltage?
     
  2. valde3

    valde3 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2014
    2,002
    745
    0
    Location:
    Finland
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    That would be better than nothing. But if you then slowly charge the whole battery pack to 100% SOC and a bit more it would be a lot better and still wouldn’t take that much more time or effort.
     
    jeff652 likes this.
  3. dolj

    dolj Senior Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2012
    7,857
    3,971
    0
    Location:
    Wellington, New Zealand
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    And for you, as time is money, you'd be better to assemble the pack and then grid charge using the HA grid charger. If you were to do a proper job, you'd get the discharger ready kit and the discharger. Use them to do a 3x charge/discharge conditioning cycle, finishing with final full balancing charge. Go for the repeat business and have the people come back every 6 months for a condition. Can be done over a 3-4 day period.
     
    jeff652 likes this.
  4. roflwaffle

    roflwaffle Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2012
    381
    77
    0
    Location:
    Orange County
    Vehicle:
    2005 Prius
    Model:
    Five
    Based on personal experience and from what I've seen posted on these forums, the BCM does a great job balancing each module in a block as long as there isn't too big of a difference between the two. Moving cells between blocks can help, but I don't think balancing individual cells in their current configuration does a whole lot.
     
  5. jeff652

    jeff652 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2014
    607
    624
    0
    Location:
    Idaho
    Vehicle:
    2005 Prius
    Model:
    II
    If you don't get the pack below 0.8V per cell the voltage depression memory effect will remain and any balancing improvement will be very short lived. You need to cycle the pack with all modules in series to below 0.8V per cell at least two times, ideally three, for optimal cell balancing results.
     
  6. jeff652

    jeff652 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2014
    607
    624
    0
    Location:
    Idaho
    Vehicle:
    2005 Prius
    Model:
    II
    EDIT: Duplicate
     
  7. ericbecky

    ericbecky Hybrid Battery Hero

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2004
    4,379
    3,238
    1
    Location:
    Madison, Wisconsin
    Vehicle:
    2005 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    A word of caution if you are doing this for pay.
    You are opening yourself up to a whole lot of liability.
    Every single bolt needs to be tightened to the correct spec.
    Notice the different types of nuts. They aren't all the same and they need to go back I the correct place. Etc, etc. If you do this for pay, you may want to have a separate company (LLC?) to protect your assets. It is not good if a fire or other accident were to occur as a result of a small error.
    If you are doing this for friends, the reality is, it may not be your friends that Sue you, but rather, their insurance company.
    And, for your own safety, you may want to consider purchasing some high voltage safety gloves.
    Not trying to be a wet blanket on the idea, just want to be realistic.
     
    exstudent likes this.
  8. exstudent

    exstudent Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2009
    2,214
    903
    0
    Location:
    Torrance, CA
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    You are just opening the OP to reality.

    OP, if you have more than two cents to rub together (figurative), an umbrella insurance policy is a good thing to have as well. Just like a large auto insurance policy.
     
    #7 exstudent, Oct 3, 2016
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2016
  9. exstudent

    exstudent Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2009
    2,214
    903
    0
    Location:
    Torrance, CA
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    The Gen2 HV Battery contains 28 modules, wired in series. Each module contains six 1.2V NiMH cells, wired in series. One module=6cells*1.2V/cell= 7.2V. HV Battery= 28modules*7.2V/module= 201.6V.

    Each module is fully enclosed in a metal and plastic housing, and is not user serviceable, meaning the manufacture did not provide a means to open the module and replace the bad cell(s). It would take a very determined person, to replace a bad cell inside a module. Is this what you did?
     
  10. voltech444

    voltech444 Junior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2016
    25
    36
    3
    Location:
    Pontiac, MI
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    The gen 1 pack I worked on today is fixed. All modules tested at 7.8v. I had pulled a P3009 code before starting the job which is a high voltage leak detected internal battery. I cleaned all the busbars, plastic holders, terminals, sides of battery modules. I then reassembled the pack and installed into car, drove 60 miles so far tonight and it's working great. These gen 1 packs have all that sealant gunk toyota put on it, a real pita but I got most of it cleaned off.

    As far as experience I do have a certificate from Cleantech Institute funded by California Energy Commision. I've been a mobile mechanic for 9 years, never had any serious issues, I always triple check my work.

    I just started doing more work with prius and camrys. I plan on getting the right equipment soon. I do have gloves rated to 10,000v with leather protectors, face shield, all the good stuff.

    Thank you all for your input. I think the grid charging is what I'll do for now. I have another gen 1 pack I'm picking up tomorrow, I may do the same thing if all cells are good, or I'm gonna replace whole pack with used gen 2 cells and balancing will be important.
     
  11. ericbecky

    ericbecky Hybrid Battery Hero

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2004
    4,379
    3,238
    1
    Location:
    Madison, Wisconsin
    Vehicle:
    2005 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    Don't forget to aggressively probe the wire looms on the modules.
    These often are brittle or have breaks or hidden corrosion that has penetrated the thin part of the connection coin just below the ring terminal.
     
    roflwaffle likes this.
  12. voltech444

    voltech444 Junior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2016
    25
    36
    3
    Location:
    Pontiac, MI
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    I'm glad you brought this up I forgot to mention that one of those ring terminals broke because of corrosion, I had to clean and solder it back together. The pack I worked on today had such bad corrosion from excessive electrolyte leakage I decided to rebuild with used gen 2 modules. I'll be working on it tomorrow, I cleaned all the busbars and plastic, tomorrow I'm gonna clean the rest of the pack when I take out the modules. This pack had a broken sensor terminal from corrosion as well.
     
  13. ericbecky

    ericbecky Hybrid Battery Hero

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2004
    4,379
    3,238
    1
    Location:
    Madison, Wisconsin
    Vehicle:
    2005 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    You can buy the wire loom itself from the dealer. Helps remove the possibility of bad wiring or corroded terminals.
     
  14. voltech444

    voltech444 Junior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2016
    25
    36
    3
    Location:
    Pontiac, MI
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    The gen 1 pack I reassembled with gen 2 cells has been working good for over 2 weeks. I didn't need to balance them because I got lucky and all the cells were reading 7.3-7.4v most were like 7.34v even though they were from 2 different packs. Those wire looms are delicate, if I can get them from Toyota I might start doing that because i've seen ones that were literally disintegrating. What do you guys think about the method of hooking up 3 modules in series and charging with 2 12v chargers (for 24v) there's a video on youtube of a guy doing this, should work, he had little jumper wires to connect modules that were close in voltage and then charged.
     
  15. ericbecky

    ericbecky Hybrid Battery Hero

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2004
    4,379
    3,238
    1
    Location:
    Madison, Wisconsin
    Vehicle:
    2005 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    Voltage does not mean the same as State of Charge. So they will not likely be "balanced".
    But it probably won't matter that much..... until the next time you need to go back in there.

    As long as you have the time, you labor is free and I wouldn't bother putting in much more effort right now.
    Now you know how to get in there, so the next time(s) will be much quicker.