Consumer Reports Pegs Prime EV Range at 28 Miles

Danny Cooper said that he thought that the decision to make the Prime a 4 seat car was a mistake. And yet he said it was the best Prius ever made.

For me the four seats isn't important, but I can see how for some it is. From my perspective the car has a great many great features and is an attractive vehicle.

I do wonder how many of those offended by the lack of a fifth seat are really serious buyers. I wonder just how many of the deals that were broken were real or just a chance for people to stand on principle.

Time will tell how well the car sells. Writing it off seems a bit premature to me.

 

and they've addressed the 5 seats. so now, the only sticking point is the reduced hatch space.

 

Danny Cooper also purchased a BMW i3 which is also a 4 seater and he has 3 kids. Jeff N bought a 4 seat Volt as did quite a few others who argued with @john1701a on previous PiP threads.

But yeah I agree with you that the lack of a 5th seat does not overshadow the many other far more interesting attributes of the Prime like LED headlights, gas injected heat pump, heated steering wheel, Toyota Safety Sense, and of course the dual motor EV drive.


iPad ?

 

I went from PiP 2012 "100% sure I'll trade up" to "No Thanks". I need this car to be very versatile. For another 10 miles of EV range, I'll keep driving the 2012 all over the place.

 

Funny... Lincoln Blackwood was the best F150 ever made yet it failed miserably

That's like a 6 year old saying "I remember when I was little..."

Those cars started out as 4 seater so expectations weren't that high to begin with. I can easily see the i3 range extender out weight the need of the 5th seat capacity on an electric vehicle.
Vehicle evolution can only grow as it matures. Do you think Camry will be successful if it revert back to a compact? Do you think Corolla will be successful if it revert back to subcompact? Insight might be able to pull it off if it revert back to 2 seater as the original Insight was a 2 seater.

 

Step way, way back to look at what has happened over the generations. You may finally see what I observe approaching. I've been following the hybrid market closely since 1999 and have been a software developer since 1989 and have been following the computer market closely since 1979. So, it's pretty easy to recognize a paradigm shift.

Prius has matured to the point where it is so well proven and well refined, the word "hybrid" has become synonymous with it. In other words, it is just an ordinary mainstream vehicle at this point. Every few years, people expect a variety of smaller improvements... but nothing amazing anymore. It delivers well on specific goals. Gen-4 has nailed it. Done.

So, no matter how much some supporters push to retain the status quo, it's ultimately going to fail. Progress cannot be made that way. The established technology alone simply isn't enough. My technology observations over the past few decades tells of bigger change to draw new interest. In other words, the current market is saturated. To grow, something new must be tried.

Prius Prime is that... not a fifth-generation Prius or a second-generation PHV model. True, it builds upon existing technology... but that's the case for pretty much every combustion vehicle. They all take advantage of the past. But that's all hidden. Seeing that Prime different is a step out from beyond the box.

Sales from the first 2 years will indicate what is needed next. That's the opportunity mid-cycle updates provide. We won't know what those new customers really want (not need) until they are given a chance to decide. Most comments from existing PHV owners don't have the perspective required. They don't have "to the floor" EV acceleration. They don't have a vapor-injected heat-pump. They don't have a battery-capacity large enough entire commutes. We won't know the true value of those things until people actually experience them.

For me, I'll be going from impressive MPG to an all EV commute. That's new, no comparison available. The electric heater will be quite a treat. I can't imagine what it will be like approaching a car that's sat outside all day, yet is warm inside. And of course, I can't wait to find out what interest those on-the-fence about getting one will think of the stories I share.

It should be clear that the purpose of Prius PHV and Prius Prime are not the same, they do not target the same buyers, they don't even have the same scope. Like other well-proven technology, the time for a reset has come. Think of how desktop computers became smart-phones. That process was long, complex, and came with a few unexpected changes along the way.

 

I believe it will be the best Prius yet. However, I'm accustomed to the Prius having class leading utility, and view the car as an appliance. Loosing a seating position offends my expectation of the Prius retaining the highest utility. Naming the vehicle something else isn't enough to distract me from drawing comparisons to the PiP, and expecting certain fundamental things to remain, or even improve.

What if the Gen IV Prius got worse fuel economy than the Gen III? There would be more outrage than with loosing the 5th seat, and yet 1 or 2 MPG worse would hardly make any difference. You can't disappoint expectations, and certainly not on something that has utility.

I'm not likely a serious buyer. My intention all along was to buy a standard Prius for it's utility, reliability, fuel efficiency, and affordability, but when I found a good deal on a PiP, I jumped on it. Now that I have the excellent vehicle, I'll probably replace the Acura TSX with an EV. When the new Leaf comes out, the first gen will likely be extremely cheap, especially if fuel prices remain low. The only way I get into a Prime is if a nicely repaired wreck comes my way, and the price is too good to pass up.

 

Now look to the future.

Nothing is forever. My first car (a 1933 Chev) had an ICE, a transmission, two bench seats and four doors. You learned to drive it and took it like it came. Now we speak of cars which will drive themselves. Car makers are VERY aware that in just a very few generations , cheap petrol will disappear and they had better be prepared to make cars which people will be able to afford which will run without cheap petrol. The hybrid car as we know it is likely transitional but may survive if some form of fuel emerges which can be artificially produced for the occasional long distance trip. Sure markets will change and Toyota will be prepared to make cars which meet what ever markets emerge.

Right now, Tesla is talking about a 400+ mile traction battery and already Teslas have the best resale value of electric cars because they correctly anticipated that buyers want more than 200 mile range on EVs. But with an ICE the Prius PHEV and the Prime can do everything that a Tesla can do (and more) and just burn a little petrol for a whole lot less investment. Apparently the Prime will be able to do it better.

It is a matter of education as much as a matter of market. John has been a very important part of education and we are all in his debt. That includes Toyota.

It was only a matter of time until other car makers marketed a Prius competitor. That is not a bad thing. We have choices. Toyota still makes very good cars and sets industry standards in that regard as well.

John says provocative stuff. He is worth paying attention to. But, after all, what is important to each of us is whether what Toyota produces will work for each of us.

The Prius PHEV works fine for me and maybe the Prime will work better for me.

 

There are only 2 things I would give up the 5th seat for. 75 mile EV range and full autonomous driver assist that's safer than the Tesla's Autopilot.
No other options or innovations in the current state of Prime is worth giving up the 5th seat for. Not 28 mile range, certainly not 22 mile range

 

I don't think Toyota was really thinking worst mileage with the 5th seat. It started off with that idea then involved materials, chargers, etc.. I believe Toyota thinks it can get away with 4 seats just to release the prime..

But people are right, the lack of 5th seat overshadows other amazing features. I think the real world estimate will be around 30 to 35 miles ev and match the volt 1.

I do think it's odd considering the small volt market and where gm went with seating that Toyota excused themselves.

To me with a pip that is amazing I was going to upgrade until I heard it was moving backwards in versatility, ie 35 miles ev doesn't entice me to give up the 5th seat. Heck the volt was a serious contender before I bought the pip...

That versatility matters and gm recognizes it.

 

in a few short years, ev's will satisfy most driving needs, phev's will be collecting dust in museums, and all the controversies will be over. no worries.

 

And in a couple of years the 2019 Prime will have 5 seats as well as the solar roof option.

And the 2019 RAV4 Hybrid Prime (or 2019 Camry Hybrid Prime) will be released after a few of us have provided feedback and nobody will care about the 5 seats.

Unsupervised!

 

and a flat hatch, and there'll be so many on the lots, we'll be buying them for pennies on the dollar!

 

What I find telling is those who label the attempt for Toyota to expand reach as a "mistake".

We went through this exercise already with GM. The outcome wasn't adding an actual 5th seat; instead, they choose to deliver other configurations... which is what they needed to do anyway. How many here actually remember all those fights. Someone would call for diversification and it would get interpreted as an effort to kill Volt? It was absolutely absurd. Enthusiasts were in a panic state for years, fearing any suggestion of change was really undermining. They seriously believed another offering would dilute, rather than strengthen.

You recognize the early signs of that here?

It starts innocently enough. There are legitimate claims to use of that middle spot; however, scope is quite limited. Most owners never use it. On the rare occasion they actually do, it comes with an apology for the discomfort. That's why the option simply isn't realize for the masses in Prius Prime. Why not offer it elsewhere instead? After all, the effort of developing the technology is to use it.

Look at how Prius v has progressed. Sales have always been respectable. 30,000 per year is sustainable, but not desired. How will Toyota stir more interest? What if it becomes the Prius model to offer the 5th seat? After all, it offers a larger cargo area. That's the better family car. Wouldn't it make sense for Toyota to capitalize on that, recategorizing the regular model Prius in the process. After all, it now offers much nicer suspension... something that clearly wasn't necessary, but certainly is nice.

Prius v could also offer Prime version too.

It's the lack of wanting to consider Toyota's entire product-line that makes the arguments here & now a problem. It follows the very same problem GM supporters had with Volt years ago. The pattern should be obvious. That same "mistake" was repeated too. The first time around, it was called "Two-Mode".

Do you really think Toyota didn't consider those lessons learned before making the choices they did with Prius Prime?

 

You mentioned target buyers for the Prius PHV and the Prime. I am curious as to what you think the purposes of each are, and what the targeted buyer is for each.

 

Companies can do really dumb things, so I don't view everything they do as well thought out or brilliant. The Prime might even be a "halo" car. Keep the image up, but don't sell too many of them because each sale dilutes profits. Toyota seemed to do just fine financially while the PiP production was shut down. It would be really interesting to see the average profit per model.

 

what good is a 40" screen if it comes with entune?

 

My old eyes would be able to more easily see how bad entune is?

 

exactly. it's probably the worst part of toyota. here's our crummy gps, phone and internet interface. okay, here's the same piece of carp technology with a 3 times bigger screen. we're listening, satisfied?

 

No, I'll fight you on that one. The worst part is the Stupid flying buttress...

Notice how it has the word butt in it?