Forbes Article mentions 37 mile range?!

That range is under the JC08 test cycle, not EPA. It is a much easier test.

 

When he says PiP1 sales were disappointing, gotta think he is in reference to Japan sales.
U.S. with California leading sales (due to green HOV stickers) was not so bad. So it'll be interesting to see Prime sales in Japan.

I does appear Toyota has given Prime the quality of EV drive power that plug-in advocates are looking for. Admittedly many U.S. plug-in advocate are wanting way more than 22 EV miles.

 

PiP sales were lower than Toyota's goals in the US, but they were off more in Japan.
"Toyota's initial global sales goal was to sell more than 60,000 Prius PHV a year, with Japan as the main market and aiming for 40,000 units, two-thirds of the carmaker's global sales goal.[117] During its first year in the market, a total of 27,279 Prius PHVs were sold worldwide,[118]"
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Prius_Plug-in_Hybrid#Markets_and_sales

 

some have mentioned that if prime hits 22 on the epa test, those of us who get 15-16 now should get 30+.

 

Yes but I'd say the whole plug-in market did not take off as well as hoped in 2012. PiP was doing relatively well among plug-ins, though they pulled out before the competition heated up.

When HybridCars.com laments slower than expected plug-in PHEV sales growth, they always say part of the prob is Toyota took away the PiP.

 

Doing relatively well in your segment doesn't mean the big bosses can't be disappointed in your sales performance.
I do agree with you that he was likely referring to sales in Japan. Yet US sales, while good, weren't enough to convince Toyota to go through with the nationwide roll out.

Car sales in general aren't doing as well as last year. The loss of the PiP hurt the plug in numbers, but it isn't the sole cause for what is going on in the market. People waiting for the Volt, Bolt, and Model 3 had some dampening affect, and now some are waiting to see the new Ioniq and Niro.

 

total light car sales down to date in the u.s.?

 

May's sales are much more down for manufacturers than up compared to last year.

 

Solar Roof will only be available in Japan & Europe. The roof doesn't meet North American Standards for Roll overs. New Toyota Prius Will Have Solar Roof Initially In EU, Japan, Then In US

 

Reagle....You posted an interesting bit of information here. Let me explain:
(1) The Japanese version of the Prime reportedly will use the same 8.8 kWh rated battery as the US version (of course the useable capacity of both will be somewhat less since the charge cycle typically does not allow full charge or discharge). The PIP had a 4.4 kWh rated battery, exactly half.
(2) Yet in Japan Mr Toyoshima has given figures of 37 mi and 16.4 mi for the range (presumedly under Japanese test protocol) of these two vehicles. In New York however (presumedly under US test protocol) the numbers given were 22 mi and 11 mi.
So, a doubling of battery capacity results in a 2x increase in range in the US, but a 2.26x increase in Japan!

Either Toyota has set the charge limits to be less conservative in Japan, or we can expect the range of the Prime in the US to be considerably more than the doubling number of 22 mi given in New York. Perhaps you are right that they "quietly tweaked things" after the show!
I think Toyota has always been extremely careful about the upper & lower charge voltages they allow their batteries to see. Maybe since the NY show they have decided to widen their limits to the level the other manufacturers seem to be using.
I would be interesting to hear others comments on this.

 

very possible, but will that put toyota quality reputation at risk?

 

It actually ranges a bit now. When the EV mode is depleted fully my SOC almost always reads 25.10%. A fully charged pack can read anywhere between 84.31% to 85.10%. So I have about 2.6kWh to use with a range of 1104Wh to 3744.4Wh. I see what you are saying and by your logic, if the battery pack is 4.4kWh, then the 8.8kWh battery should yield about 5280Wh of usable range. Or not. Because this would assume they left the battery voltage and power levels the same. I really doubt they would do that. Toyota has already indicated from just reading the articles mentioned in the stickies the amount of power they can get from the new battery would fry MG2 in our beloved PiPs. I fully expect this battery to match the @bisco cycle (or did I mean JC08 ) of 37 miles.

[edit] I really should finish my thoughts: This also means the typical EPA user should use about 4.17miles/kWh. My lifetime average is 4.1 m/kWh so I should get about 22 miles. Toyota is being its typical conservative self.

 

You have to factor the performance differences between the two cars along with the tests.

The EPA tests are a harder than Japans with higher top speeds and accelerations. The PiP has lower top EV speeds and acceleration than the Prime. On the JC08, it could stay in EV the entire test. It could not do so on the EPA, and the 11 miles of range on the window sticker includes the use of some gasoline. The Prime will be able to do the EPA tests without using gas like the PiP did. The higher speeds and acceleration means it will use the electricity less efficiently than it can on the JC08.

To put it another way, the Prime didn't just double the EV range of the PiP on the EPA test. It doubled it and eliminated the burning of the 0.2 or gallons of gas the PiP used.

 

Trollbait,
Thanks for your comments, but reflecting on your explanation of the differences between the two test protocols I would think the numbers should be the other way around. However, the numbers say that under EPA the apparent "improvement" (PIP to Prime) will be about 13% less than under JC08 (factor of 2.26 under JC08 vs factor of 2 under EPA).
Am I missing something in your argument?

 

the epa test does two thinks. one) how far until the engine is triggered (6 miles in the pip) and how far until you run out of wall charge. (11 miles) not sure how the test triggers the engine at 6 miles, since it doesn't happen in practice. but it has been a source of consternation for potential buyers over the years, and much confusion among sales people.
i don't know anything about the japanese testing, but since prime engine won't come on if you don't want it to, until it runs out of wall charge, toyota is only talking about that spec.

 

The PiP on the EPA test only goes about 6 miles in mode alone, and then the acceleration or speed of the EPA test cycle is too much and causes it to turn on the ICE.

Now, on the easy going JC08, both models can run the test on the charge in the battery alone, and the Prime goes 2.26 times farther. It looks like the Prime only goes 2 times as far in the EPA test, but its 22 miles is on battery alone. The 11 miles for the PiP on the EPA is the energy in the battery plus the energy from burning some gasoline.

If it was possible for the PiP to do the EPA test on battery alone, it wouldn't be able to go for 11 miles. Whatever that distance, it likely would be short enough that the Prime's 22 miles would be around 2.26 times greater.

There won't be a 13% improvement for the Prime in EV mode. There will be an improvement while in EV auto mode. The system turns the ICE on at a lower threshold in this mode, as in the PiP.

 

Trollbait,
Thanks for the explanation. Guess I just assumed (incorrectly it would seem) that tests designed to estimate a vehicle's electric range would not include any range provided by gasoline.

 

According to this web site (トヨタ 新型プリウスPHV | トヨタ自動車WEBサイト) it looks like Toyota is aiming for more than 60 km EV while just under the standard Prius LB for fuel consumption.


Unsupervised!

 

huh, that goes against everything we've heard so far. sounds like toyota is feeling the volt heat.