NiMH vs Li-Ion battery - what's the deal?

IMHO, the Li-ion 7-seater Prius V/+/Alpha is too small for the US market, that's the main reason they did not sell it in the US market.

for Prius V/+/Alpha, equiped with Toyota's 1st Gen. non-plug-in HV Li-ion Batt.,
you can take a Japanese ratailer's price for example
JAPANESE GENUINE OEM PARTS CATALOG｜JP-CarParts.com
G9510-47110 Li-ion US$ 4,157.05 w/o shipping
G9510-76010 Ni-MH US$ 1,588.36 w/o shipping
The Li-ion one is way more expensive.

The smaller Li-ion Batt. in Prius Gen. 4 is Toyota's 2nd Gen. non-plug-in HV Li-ion Batt.
It should be much cheaper.

 

Good info...but why would it be too much smaller? and cheaper? and does plug-in Li version cost more?

 

no moonroof in UK either.

 

This is what I'm thinking too.

I also suspect that Toyota is offering Li-ion battery alternative as a response to public popularity, and not because it's better and more durable than their NiMH battery technology (which Toyota has got it right and is world's best at(?)).

 

...that's a valid guess...but one of those we are mushrooms - kept in the dark and fed, well, nothing

 

I'm not familiar with chemistry of batteries, but here are some basic info and reference "retail" prices (from jp-carparts.com) for Li-ion batteries in the Prius family:
----------------------------PEVE-------------------------------------------
3.6V/5.0Ah/NCA-type-Cell
Prius PHV lease/test version (2009/12 - 2010/10) 5.2kWh-pack/$40,950
Prius V/+/Alpha 7-seater (2011/04 - ) 1.0kWh-pack/$4,157
---------------------------Sanyo/Panasonic--------------------------
3.7V/20.5Ah/NCM-type-Cell
Prius PHV retail version (2012/01 - 2015/06??) 4.4kWh-pack/$7,768
----------------------------PEVE-------------------------------------------
3.7V/3.6Ah/NCM-type-Cell
Prius Gen. 4 (2015/11 - ) 0.75kWh-pack/$????

Toyota must feel confident enough in terms of reliability to equip Prius Gen. 4 with a improved but smaller Li-ion battery pack.
SAE2016-01-1207 Development of the Li-ion Battery Cell for Hybrid Vehicle

IMHO, it will still be limited by Primearth EV Energy (PEVE, Toyota's HV batttery supplier)'s capacity in the future.
It is reported (by Nikkei BP) that, PEVE has been in full-speed production for years.
Its current already-expanded capacity is about Li-ion battery / 0.2 million cars per year & NiMH battery / 1.4 million cars per year.
Globally speaking, the NiMH battery will still be the majority for Toyota, at least in recent years.
Where will they provied Li-ion battery alternative in the near future? It's hard to tell yet.

 

Best Avatar award I think I am depressed

 

Yes, they have moved on to using the same argument against plugins now.
Luckily that argument was old hat to me as I've been dealing with it since we owned our Prii

 

Not certain, but I understand that NiMH has a higher energy density, and is more tolerant of deep discharge than Lithium Ion - whether that has a benefit in cars.

In Notebook Computers, mobile phones, the desire has been to make them more portable and light which has pushed the Li-Ion p"desirability", (though to be honest, I haven't experienced significant improved in-use time with Li-Ion on the few Notebooks and phones I've owned).

 

Maybe the EPA ratings and real results differ. My FOUR Touring, according to EPA, does not get this MPG. I think it may be more complicated due to EPA being in the middle of everything for results as the cars are out the door before these are published. What would be nice if the same driver drove the same route for each car and posted the results. Of course all the set up would have to be the same. EPA tries to do this with a computer but it is an approximation at best.
Really don't get it either as it seems counter intuitive.

 

@Grus above I think suggested that Primeearth (PEVE) who makes Toyota NiMH batteries may be full out on NiMH production capacity. So US market is perhaps getting Lithium to help Toyota spread the production load to Li batts (I am confused if Panasonic or PEVE is making the Li batts).

I would think Li is more expensive but maybe Toyota can look at it as follows: they need xx million batteries but they can only make xx-yy NiMH batts so some need to be Li and maybe they can spread the cost among the new vehicle fleet.

Note that what @Grus said above is different than what some of us here have speculated. *Somebody* (and I am not naming names) said Toyota was phasing out NiMH. But I think Grus is suggesting that NiMH is still Toyota's bread and butter for hybrids.

 

On the cell/module level, the norminal energy density (kWh/kg) and specific power (W/kg) of NiMH are much lower than Li-ion.
On the battery pack level, you need many components besides battery cells. For the very Prius Gen. 4, the NiMH battery pack may seems to hold higher norminal energy density, but in the aspect of usable energy density, the Li-ion battery pack is still higher.
And the Li-ion one has deeper discharge setting.
Here Toyota chose to use a smaller Li-ion battery pack with total usable energy & power similar to NiMH pack instead of a larger & more powerfull one.

PEVE was Panasonic EV Energy, a Panasonic-Toyota joint venture. The name was changed to Primearth EV Energy while Panasonic purchasing Sanyo and most of the majority stake was sold to Toyota due to anti-trust reasons. Most of the PEVE's production capacity is for NiMH, and still expanding. It was reported by Japanese media that they invested about 10 billion JPY for new facility of additional 100k NiMH units per year in Japan in the beginning of 2014. And there will be a new NiMH battery cell joint venture start production this year in China. The NiMH seems to be a sophisticated & cheaper & reliable choice for non-plug-in cars. It may seems some "OLD" to someone , but still is an advanced technology comparing to "traditional" cars. It won‘t be phasing out by Toyota in recent years. Even the Mirai has one.
The Li-ion batteries for PiP Gen. 1 (lease/test version) / Prius Alpha 7-seater / Prius Gen. 4 are made by PEVE.
The Li-ion batteries for PiP Gen. 1 (retail version) are made by Sanyo (purchased by Panasonic).
The Li-ion batteries for PiP Gen. 2? I don't know yet ...

Toyota offer the moonroof option as a +100k JPY & +10kg option in Japan for all grades except E(ECO).
You can order a 2WD or E-Four Prius Gen. 4 w/ moonroof & NiMH batteries there.
Ref: 主要装備一覧表(equipment list)

 

To my knowledge, you need to ask someone in charge of Prius' "grades design" in Toyota EU for this kind of question.
They consider marketing investigations, available option menu (from Toyota Global headquarter), cost limitation, ... together.
And those details of internal discussions are often confidential.
Publicly, Toyota will tell you the stories they want you to believe.
It seems to be some strange to me too, that I think normally moonroof would be welcome in Europe.
One thing for sure, the costs are lower w/o moonroof.

 

How depressed is the robot this morning?

Also my car is significantly quieter and cooler without the solar roof.

 

I'm interested - is it less wind buffeting making it quieter?

But I can't understand it being cooler. Or did you manage to get one in Thermo-Tect Lime Green (I can see you actually got silver)?

 

The large hole in the roof in the hot sun was hot to the touch even with the shade closed. They needed that cooling fan to take all the extra heat out. My wife even notices it is cooler inside. Plus leaking when it gets old and grey.
You basically have a huge solar glass collector.