NiMH vs Li-Ion battery - what's the deal?

Good question - I've no idea. It could be a supply problem? But, apart from being heavier, the NiMH looks like it's got a higher capacity. In Australia, we're "only" getting NiMH too. Here there are no credits or mandates for electric/hybrid, so the electric/hybrid market isn't very large at all.

Toyota states "... The new nickel-metal hydride hybrid battery is more compact than in the previous generation model, with an even better durability and charging performance ...".

Maybe NiMH is a more proven longer term technology. Plus, I'd guess that, long term, Li-Ion may be more expensive to replace should we keep the car that long. In Japan, cars are rarely kept for that long anyway, unlike here where our vehicle fleet is considerably older, which may be a factor. Im not sure of the age of the vehicle fleet in USA or EU.

 

Australia's census last year showed average age 10.1 years, so much the same as USA.

 

I m a french buyer of the new prius 4. To what I know the choice for a nimh battery is because of a cheaper price. Prius is not a big sale here in EU compare to US and japan. Toyota make its technical choices depending on markets needs (in EU they need a competitive equipement/price to beat other car makers). Nimh is nearly as good for a cheaper price. L-ion is pushed by others phev makers (Toyota isn't historically a big fan of it).

 

This is explained on another thread. See posts 226 and 227 in
Prius Eco 58 MPG vs Prius 54 MPG - What's the difference? | Page 12 | PriusChat
The Li battery is roughly 8-9kg lighter than the new NiMH (just under 20lbs) and slightly smaller. Not huge differences but anything helps.

 

These are all good questions, that we do not really have good answers for. The auto companies tend to be keeping secret their rationale for price and battery technology. Not just for Prius, in general. It's a little like state-by-state car sales data of models (say Prius): something that is rarely shared with the public.

I agree with Unus from France, that Toyota's stated reason for NiMH in EU is to reduce cost. But that's a bit of a "head scratcher" as one tends to think of European motorists as being willing to pay more for their cars and other things.

I do not know what battery chemistry Toyota is using, and if patent issues may impact their cost outside the USA. That could be one factor.

Also in the US, it's almost politically incorrect to suggest Li batts are not the cheapest and best, and getting cheaper by the minute. This is partially why you are asking these questions.

I do think lithium batteries are quite expensive, and it will be interesting to see Toyota cost for Gen4 battery replacement. I feel Nissan (eg; Leaf) is subsidizing Li batt replacement cost enormously when they charge only ~$5000 for replacement. When Toyota charges ~$2250 for a replacement 1kWhr NiMH, that is more or less true normal parts cost (unsubsidized). The question I have asked, do we know EU Prius v Li battery replacement cost? vs. NiMH ?

Will Toyota replace Gen4 Li batts with Li (in kind) or NiMH due to lower cost?

 

Which brings up the question: how will the lifetimes of the new NiMH and Li batteries compare, in the particular conditions of usage that these specific batteries experience in the Gen 4? If they last a long time, say 200K miles, the replacement costs become less important.

 

I think this is true, but I don't think the average European consumer will see the battery as the deal-breaker. While people on this forum might seen advantages/disadvantages of the battery materials, most consumers won't know what the battery is made of. You can't see it after all, and given that the battery choice is region wide across Europe, its not as if you'll be getting in your neighbours car with the 'new, fancy battery pack.' The NiMH batteries are also tried and tested technology, it might actually be a plus to have them for some consumers. If you're trying to keep the price low it does seem an obvious place to cut back. The European motoring press has been describing the new NiMH batteries as 'lighter and more efficient', which they are. The chemicals in them have barely got a mention.

Remember, Toyota is under stiff competition in Europe, it is only the 11th biggest selling car brand. The big issue the Prius has is that its price pushes it against poverty spec cars from the premium German brands. For example a base spec BMW 318i SE starts at just over £25,000 which is about the same as a mid-trim Prius. (Although realistically, most people are going to want a Diesel if they're buying a cheap 3-series, so probably a more realistic comparison is a 316d SE which costs £27.5k, about the same as a top trim Prius). The Prius is probably a better car than a poverty spec 3-series on most objective measures, but it doesn't have the status, brand appeal, the performance or the cabin quality that a German car would offer.

Consequently, I think the Prius will sell in Europe to taxi drivers (mostly), where cost savings and tried and tested battery technology counts, and then to people who want the technology and green credentials rather than financial savings. (A efficient VW diesel would almost certainly be a cheaper car to own and run overall.)


(data from 2015 (Full Year) Europe Best-Selling Carmakers Brands Models)

 

100% agree with you which is why I decided to buy a Gen 4 Prius over a 'premium car' that actually has very few of the features I want at the price I think is reasonable. My point wasn't that it was rational to buy a 3-Series, Golf etc. over a Prius, but that because you can get one for similar prices (although I totally agree, not similar spec) lots of buyers will opt for the German cars just for the brand prestige. Basically, I think there are a lot of consumers who look at price and brand first and then everything else second, for them if you can get an Audi for Prius money, you buy an Audi even if if it has a much worse specification.

 

I totally agree here in France diesel are purely inbeatable (taxes are lower) and technology and market are mature. And I m mot talking about the diesel current low prices. It is very hard for Toyota to sell the prius in this tough environment. Toyota France is battling on equipement field (only 2 trim levels - fully equipped)

 

This has been a common fraud of auto reporters in the USA. They typically use some 'piece of sh*t' car, base model and compare it to the Prius without matching feature-for-feature. Then they make outrageous claims of the 'hybrid premium.' It was more common 10 years ago but we still run into it when some 'non-Prius' advocate comes to PriusChat to troll.

Bob Wilson

 

2 trims in Australia - one well equipped for $38k driveaway, the other with not that much more useful + some prestige items $46k. I'd be surprised if they sell many of the $46k one.

As for premium packaging, it's been going on for ½ a century here. I went to buy a new VOLVO in 1976, base manual. "Oh, no, there aren't any of them in the country, (despite it being on their pricelist) - you'll have to get PowerSteer, A/C, TapeDeck & Auto (all of which weren't common here then), because that's all we've got. Or place an order and have it delivered in 6-8 mths". I settled for a 2yr old, fully equipped one for the same money instead.

No different now. Lexus CT200h is $38k, but to get City Safe Braking and Autonomous Cruise (standard on base Prius), is $59k - and is only available with wide tyres which are reputed to ruin the ride quality & a sunroof - who wants one of them in the tropics? VW here only sells diesel in 2nd top tier model AND only with their jerky pretend Automatic (DSG).

 

Don't forget the Mini (I doubt this is popular outside the UK?), which is basically a mini-BMW with a not so mini price!

This makes me especially sad because the original Mini was a glorious car that I loved dearly.