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Same ol' VSC, Brake, ABS Warning lights

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Care, Maintenance and Troubleshooting' started by mohater, Jul 10, 2015.

  1. mohater

    mohater Junior Member

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    Hi guys,

    Signed up just to get some help here.

    This is my sister's car. Purchased ~1 year ago. 2008 Prius that had ~90k on it. Car was in Los Angeles, CA.

    Around 100k, the lights turned on. The car operated normally. A few thousand miles later, they turned off then back on a few thousand later. The car is now with me to figure out the problem/take it somewhere else to get fixed.

    She took it to the dealer on the advice from someone else before bringing it to me. After paying the $100 diag fee, she was told they would need to tear down to the actuator to diagnose and the diag fee for that is $800.

    Things I searched online here:

    Coolant pump seems to be working fine. I hear the aquarium pump sound/see the fluid gurgling if I remove the cap with a cool car. Have not checked if the pump was replaced under the Toyota recall.

    I tried resetting the code by jumping the 4 and 13 pin, lights came right back.

    I have a multimeter, but have no idea how to use it (to test the 12v battery). Assuming it's the factory original 12v battery.

    The brake fluid level is at an appropriate level. Car has had no issues in braking before or after the lights turned on/off.

    Car drives like nothing is wrong. Fuel economy is not at all compromised.

    Have an appointment next week at a reputable shop in San Jose, but would like to continue diagnosing this weekend if possible. Chances are the guy will tell me the same thing the dealer said and I'm just looking for more confirmation this is a job I can't do.

    Thanks,

    mohater
     
    #1 mohater, Jul 10, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2015
  2. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    I have no idea what you can or cannot do regarding automotive repairs.

    However, if you are serious about DIY, you need Mini VCI so that you can retrieve the DTC logged by the skid control ECU. If you don't have the DTC then you really have no idea what is wrong with the car.

    It would also help if you are precise regarding exactly what warning lights are on. Take sharp photos of the warning lights and any warning icons in the upper left corner of the MFD, and post.
     
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  3. mohater

    mohater Junior Member

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    Thanks for the reply. I went out and took a pictures. It's below. Nothing is on the MFD.

    Comfort level: This is the first time I've ever dealt with a hybrid. I've done everything from engine swap (with help), CV shafts, oil, EGR, exhaust swap, brakes, brake lines (outsourced the flaring, but did the removal and new line install), etc. I'm just worried about messing up and then needing to tow the car.

    Texted my sister and she said the dealer provided her the following code on the invoice: C1253.

    Is there a preferred Mini VCI?


    IMG_4108.JPG
     
  4. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    There are a few things you can do regarding DTC C1253:

    1. Find the ABS MTR and ABS MTR 2 relays. Remove each relay and check the relay by applying 12VDC to the relay coil terminals and measuring resistance across the switched terminals. The resistance should be 0.5 ohm or less after accounting for the digital multimeter lead resistance. Use the ohmmeter to determine which are the coil terminals (resistance will be ~100 ohms or so.)
    2. If the relays are good, then you will need to replace the brake actuator. You can buy a used one for ~$200 or so. You will need to remove the sheet metal cowl tray (which houses the windshield wiper motor) for access to the brake actuator.
    prius brake actuator 2008 | eBay
    3. If you get to #2, then I suggest you subscribe to techinfo.toyota.com so that you have access to the factory repair manual info.
    4. You will also need Mini VCI to refill the brake lines with DOT3 brake fluid and get air out of the system. This is the Mini VCI that I had bought:


    So if you mess up, it is not the end of the world - you can have the car towed for help. However it sounds like this is well within your comfort zone if you do the needed homework and have the proper tools and Mini VCI available.

    Use the multimeter to measure the 12V battery voltage when the car is IG-OFF. A new 12V AGM battery fully-charged will measure 13.0V. A discharged battery will measure 12.0V. See what the battery measures. If it is below 12.6V, put the battery on a charger, 4A charging position if available, overnight.

    I noticed that the fuel gauge is reading one bar, so fuel should be added in the very near future. You don't want to run out of fuel with the other problem that the car already has.

    Good luck.
     
    #4 Patrick Wong, Jul 11, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2015
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  5. mohater

    mohater Junior Member

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    Thanks for the reply.

    Couple follow up questions (first time dealing with electrical stuff like this, and I feel mighty accomplished, finally used the $2 harbor freight multimeter I bought ~4 years ago):

    1. For #1 in your post, do I need to apply an external 12v power source to the relay? I tested them by removing the covers, connecting the relay (by pushing on the electromagnet piece) and measured, couldn't find my alligator leads to connect them to 12V DC. Both relays were fine.
    2. The picture didn't come through of your Mini VCI.
    3. Will any el-cheapo trickle charger work here? I'm seeing a huge price difference for available chargers (as cheap as $20, up to $300). The battery was measuring around 12.4-12.5 on the cheap harbor freight multimeter, so I'm shopping for a trickle charger now.

    The lights are all off now, probably from removing and reinstalling the relays. I'll drive it for a while and see if they come back on. I need to get some odds and ends from the junk yard (the fuse box under the hood is missing the cover and a couple other things) and will grab the actuator. How "unsafe" is driving a car that potentially has an actuator that's failing?
     
  6. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    1. Yes, you need a 12VDC source. You could use two 6V lantern batteries wired in series, as an example. You need to engage the relay coil to make sure the relay actually works. Using your finger doesn't count because your finger is not going to be there to hold the relay contacts closed when the car is being driven.
    2. Look on amazon.com for Mini VCI.
    3. If you are going to buy a battery charger, get one specified to work with 12V AGM batteries. Another charger will not bring the battery voltage as high as it needs to be to be fully-charged. You need a charger that will produce at least 4A charging current.

    Why is the fuse box missing its cover? Is this an accident vehicle that had been totaled, repaired and resold? If so, that might help to explain why the car has this problem now. It is really not helpful to have the electrical circuits exposed to water splashing in under the engine compartment.

    You ask how unsafe the car is to drive. It is as unsafe as any other vehicle whose braking system might give out at any moment.
     
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  7. mohater

    mohater Junior Member

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    Thanks for the reply.

    The car came with a missing cover. Carfax showed no accidents and there isn't any clear indication of an accident, unless the owner did everything off the books (accident, repair, etc.).
    I'll work on the items you have listed above and reply in the next few days.
     
  8. mohater

    mohater Junior Member

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    Update here:

    Thanks for the help Patrick.

    I went out and got the cover for the fuse box, the yard had a car with a clean front end, so I grabbed the two ABS relays as a just in case (charged me $10 for both and $15 for the cover). Also bought the alligator leads to test them. Both the yard relays and car relays tested fine, but one of the car relays has a lot of "play" when I held it. I didn't know if it was the plastic cover or the entire relay. Went ahead and put the ones from the yard in the car and the light has been off for ~24 hours now. The yard also had a selection of brake actuators for $200+ tax, so I know where to grab one of those. Going to use the car for around town lower speed errands to make sure the lights stay off.

    Question: Other than a code being thrown, does the actuator show other signs of failing (noisy, grinding, softer brake pedal, etc.)? I don't mind replacing the actuator, but I want to make sure it actually fixes the problem at hand.
     
    #8 mohater, Jul 14, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2015
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  9. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    How many miles has the car been driven since the two relays were replaced? If the DTC does not come back after 500 miles have been driven, then you can declare victory.

    One possibility would be that the brake actuator pump motor runs much more than normal. This demonstrates that the system is not maintaining hydraulic pressure to the extent that it should.
     
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  10. mohater

    mohater Junior Member

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    As always, many thanks Patrick

    I'm up to ~200 miles now, still no light. Is it worth running up to pep boys to check for codes even if the light is off?

    Yeah, that's not happening. I hear the slight murmur of the actuator when I brake, but it's brief, the same it's been (from any memory I have of my sister's car).
     
  11. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    Well, if no warning lights are on then I would say that all is good.
     
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  12. mohater

    mohater Junior Member

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    Awesome. Now to send a nasty gram to the dealer for being dumb and not actually troubleshooting it and to Toyota USA about the quality of their licensed service providers.
     
  13. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    I think you should hold the letters until next week when you've logged a total of 500 miles without any problems. If the problem reoccurs soon and you need professional help, you may regret burning your bridges.
     
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  14. mohater

    mohater Junior Member

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    Good point. 300 more miles.

    The last time I had a bad dealer experience they said a misfire was due to a valve adjustment... The forum community helped me identify it as one bad coil pack.
     
  15. mohater

    mohater Junior Member

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    300+ more miles driven and the lights are still off.

    Thanks again Patrick.
     
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  16. aaronlife

    aaronlife Junior Member

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    For future reference, when my actuator was failing, the pump would run every 10 seconds or so while I was driving and not braking, but the brakes otherwise worked fine except for losing the brakes twice when I jumped in the car and put it in reverse right away after starting; it didn't have time to pressurize the brakes. The first symptom I noticed was that the pump seemed to run longer after I shut off the car, more than the usual few seconds.
     
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  17. mohater

    mohater Junior Member

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    Thanks aaronlife. That's def not happening here.
     
  18. chsim

    chsim Junior Member

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    I'm new on this forum & I live in Singapore but I'd like to share some info which might interest you all.
    I have a 2nd Gen Prius imported from Japan. A few months ago, the chirping sounds started & the mechanics said that the brake actuator is dying. A fortnight ago, the ABS, VSC & brake warning lights came on & the alert sounded. I searched & found that there was a recall for this very problem on Toyota Japan website - toyota.jp/recall/kaisyu/150708.html entitled プリウスなど7車種 ブレーキアクチュエータの修理 which means Prius & 7 other models - Brake Actuator Repair. The phrase "平成15年から平成24年に生産したプリウスなど 7車種の一部車両につきまして、下記内容の修理(無料)を実施させていただくことに致しました。" is saying "Repair (free-of-charge) is in order for Prius & 7 other models manufactured from 2003 to 2012". "ブレーキ頻度の高い厳しい使われ方により、ブレーキアクチュエータのソレノイドバルブシール部が摩耗し、フェールセーフモードに入り、警告灯点灯、警告音吹鳴、ブレーキの効きが低下することがあります。当該現象が発生し修理をご用命の場合、下記の通り無料にて修理対応致します。" means "Due to frequent use of the brakes, the valve seal of the solenoid in the brake actuator gets worn & the system will enter a fail-safe mode with warning lights & sound. Braking performance will be degraded. When such phenomena occur, and repair becomes imperative, you should follow the instructions below to get repairs done free."
    The part 【 従来の保証期間 】新車を登録した日から5年または10万Km以内 → 【 無料修理対応期間 】平成29年12月末迄:全車無料修理. 平成30年 1月以降:新車を登録した日から9年以内 says that the 5 years or 100,000km warranty is superceded by a free repair period ending Dec 2017 after which this recall applies within 9 years of registration of all new cars. The table of 7 models has Prius at the top of the list. プリウス ZA-NHW20 DAA-NHW20 NHW20-0001002~NHW20-0133242 平成15年 8月~平成16年10月 Aug 2003 to Oct 2004, NHW20-3000002~NHW20-3589297 平成16年 9月~平成23年12月 Sep 2004 to Dec 2011 and NHW20-7000000~NHW20-7894049 平成16年10月~平成21年 3月 Oct 2004 to Mar 2009. My car chassis number is NHW20-3410902 so it is covered under this recall. Yet when I wrote to Toyota Motors for the repair to be done, they claimed that my car (based on VIN) was not part of the recall. I challenged them as I did not reveal my VIN to them. Until now, they are not responding to me. As there are many similar failures, I suspect that Toyota is trying to protect its reputation in its home market but is hoping that nobody else notices that they are treating overseas customers as second class.
    Any one has any ideas what we should do to correct the situation?
     
  19. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    Thanks for paying attention to the Toyota JDM market and recall info. It looks like this bulletin was issued in 2015? I doubt you have any recourse since the JDM warranty likely is limited to vehicles physically located in Japan.

    Those of us in North America hopefully will see TMS USA issue a TSB on this issue soon.
     
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  20. Sonic_TH

    Sonic_TH Active Member

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    I have the same lights on in my 2012 Prius C, brake fluid level it's where it is supposed to be, they turned on while i was driving on the highway at 65 mph, the vehicle brakes normally, just that it does not have regenerative braking now. Could it be an ABS sensor or something? like a wheel speed sensor, of course i have not scanned it yet.