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Suggested Improvements for Gen-5 Prius

Discussion in 'Gen 4 Prius Main Forum' started by bwilson4web, Feb 19, 2016.

  1. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    As the article points out, they address different requirements such as efficiency:
    • Induction motor - lower efficiency
    • Permanent magnet motor - higher efficiency
    Bob Wilson
     
  2. Yamamoto2

    Yamamoto2 Junior Member

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    Of course, high MG efficacy is very important for EV. But in HEV main power flow goes through gears, so 1-2% of efficacy of MG doesn't matter.
    IM doesn't contain rare-earth metals and could be cheaper compared to PM motor. Also, the control of IM is simpler.
     
  3. Eug

    Eug Swollen Member

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    I'd just be happy if they introduced AWD into the Prius. Oh wait... They've already done that... except it's not available in North America.

     
  4. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    I was wondering if such a system would be robust enough for an actual work truck.
     
  5. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    high MG efficacy is very important for EV. But in HEV main power flow goes through gears, so 1-2% of efficacy of MG doesn't matter. - High efficiency saves the overhead of one pair of gears.

    IM doesn't contain rare-earth metals and could be cheaper compared to PM motor.
    - No rotor cooling needed for a rare-earth metal motor because there are no power currents. Cooling does not come free.

    Also, the control of IM is simpler
    - Different doesn't make it simpler. Both would require an "H", power semiconductor, matrix.​

    Bob Wilson
     
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  6. I'mJp

    I'mJp Senior Member

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    A way that a normal person own his/her own could adjust the backup beep.
     
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  7. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Thanks,
    I was thinking making the beep external at the rear light assembly would solve 90% of the problem by making it a useful warning for 'alert' pedestrians and distant from the driver and passengers. But I do like the idea of owner tailoring of some features.

    You've also given me a clue about re-working the estimated costs. Any part, no matter how small, requires a one-time, engineering change that typically is labor and some parts. Then there is the recurring cost which happens with each car. I need to identify both costs in the estimate using 'semi-log' scale:
    • $10,000 - at $50/hour, 200 labor hours, software change
    • $50,000 - 1000 labor hours, half a man-year, software and minor material
    • $500,000 - 10000 labor hours, five man-years, software and major material
    As always, folks are invited to suggest adjustments to this scale. Just offer some basis of estimate. Once we have consensus, I'll adjust the table.

    Bob Wilson
     
  8. Sillywizard

    Sillywizard Junior Member

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    Hardly an engineering wonder, however,
    of all the nifty storage spaces in the cockpit, the ones I appreciate the most are the middle console and the double glove compartments of the gen2, so I would like to see Toyota bring back the double glove compartment.
     
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  9. JimboPalmer

    JimboPalmer Tsar of all the Rushers

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    The current v has the double glovebox.
     
  10. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Agreed!

    When stopped by a police officer, one should have ready access to registration and insurance papers without having to dig through sensitive stuff:
    • firearm(s) in some areas
    • fishing or game dressing knife in some areas
    • beverage(s) in some areas
    • Colorado smoking product(s) outside of Colorado
    • lady friend underwear
    • your crash/Montezuma underwear
    • last resort toddler diapers
    • . . . (use your own imagination)
    Bob Wilson
     
    #50 bwilson4web, Mar 11, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2016
  11. Sillywizard

    Sillywizard Junior Member

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    Incorporate the parking brake into the button on the dash for "PARK" and do away with the pedal.
     
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  12. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    I have to think about this one. For example, some of us would like a hand brake. We also have to think about emergency situations like the Saylor crash. Let me give some early thoughts:
    • Parking brake stops or puts engine in "idle" mode - so this becomes an alternate to the non-intuitive, push and hold POWER button. Had the Saylor driver held the POWER button for several seconds, it would have turned off the engine power generation and given them time to stop or lowered the speed. But another approach would have been if the normal brake failed, set the parking brake (did Saylor?)
    • Parking brakes are probably a required safety feature to pass NHTSA regulations. This might require legislation in the USA and/or other countries.
    • I understand from the old "Top Gear" that one can make an exceptionally fast U-turn with a hand brake.
    • Dead 12V battery system, unable to set parking brake.
    I'm open to suggestions about this one because there may be unique situations and variations. For example, if the car is powered down, automatically set the parking brake. But would that require manual release of the parking brake on starting?

    Bob Wilson
     
    #52 bwilson4web, Mar 11, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2016
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  13. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Electric parking brakes are already out on some car models at this moment.
    Their activation is likely not tied to putting the transmission in park. As one of those components that the company keeps in a parts bin for multiple models, and since some models still have manual transmissions without a park selection, integrating parking brake control with parking pawl control is not going to be a high priority.
     
  14. Sillywizard

    Sillywizard Junior Member

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    Ah yes, opportunities to make those hairpin U-turns and put to use my drifting skillz have always eluded me, even more so since driving a Prius ;)
    But never say never!
     
    #54 Sillywizard, Mar 11, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2016
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  15. BYH

    BYH New Member

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    2 inch longer wheelbase with a 180" overall length. More rear seat leg room. keep the weight 3000 lbs or lighter.

    have a 1.2 liter turbo engine with a 80hp electric motor for a combined power output of at least 140hp, ideally 150hp.

    0-60mph in about 8 seconds.

    have a retractable cup holder below the front side vents.
     
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  16. JimboPalmer

    JimboPalmer Tsar of all the Rushers

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    An Atkinson cycle engine with a supercharger is technically a Miller cycle engine. The current Prius engines have a compression ratio of 8 to 1 and an expansion ratio of over 13 to 1. Miller cycle - Wikipedia
    Pressurizing this may require higher octane gas, at a minimum, lower compression pistons as a drastic fix.

    Cars with a turbocharger have issues turning the engine off when the turbo is still hot, baking the oil. Hot rodders typically use a turbo timer to prevent engine off before cool oil can reduce compressor temps. Turbo timer - Wikipedia

    Since hybrids gain efficiency by turning off the engine early and frequently, turbocharging may not be an ideal technology. At the very least you would want both the coolant loop and the engine oil to continue to circulate for some duration after engine shutdown.

    On the other side, turbos suffer from lag as the engine goes from idle to full power. This can only be worse with an engine that is not idling, but is off.

    Toyota has always tuned their Prius to get between 120 and 135 HP, presumably there is a reason for this, most likely to maximize MPG by having the throttle open wider during normal driving to reduce pumping losses.
    Active Fuel Management - Wikipedia

    I do not think these problems are insurmountable, but they are all problems. No manufacturer make a Hybrid with a turbo engine, for reasons similar to the one's I mentioned. (Googling for Turbo hybrid gets variations on the following site Turbo Force Hybrid Tile & Grout Cleaning Tool, 12 Inch | Jon-Don )
     
    #56 JimboPalmer, Oct 11, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2017
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  17. alanclarkeau

    alanclarkeau Senior Member

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    If you go longer with longer car, and longer wheelbase - essentially you've just moved to a bigger car class. Which is the problem with just about every car - it just grows and grows. Eg - the latest VW POLO is bigger than the original GOLF and has a longer wheelbase than the original PASSAT, 2 sizes bigger.

    I disagree with putting a turbo - diesel turbos last forever (well, not really, but a long time - though some modern diesels have other issues), petrol turbochargers haven't had the best reputation for various reasons, mainly due to the much hotter environment they work in. They would be even worse in a stop/start situation.

    And going away from the Atkinson engine - almost no point in having a hybrid.

    I've never used a cup holder, so not sure what's wrong with the current ones. I eat and drink at home.

    As I've suggested elsewhere, there are other issues which are more important to be solved for Gen 5 - the biggest is the poor seats. Then followed by total replacement of the pathetic "entertainment" system, as well as fix the Cruise Control or DRCC which won't hold to the set speed when a hill (up or down) comes.
     
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  18. bhtooefr

    bhtooefr Senior Member

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    Here's what I'd like to see for a Gen 5:

    • Leave the vehicle size alone, it's basically right. 6 foot tall adults are fine in the back seat, that's all it needs to be.
    • Make the PHV/Prime the base model, but package it better - follow Volkswagen and Hyundai's example of how to do this with the same rear suspension design - battery under the seat, fuel tank under the cargo floor. This will also likely improve handling over the existing Prime, by lowering the center of gravity and centralizing the weight.
    • Increase EV mode power - if liquid cooling is required to do this, then do it.
    • Consider offering a hot hatch model with a ~2.5 liter ICE and a small battery (no plug). The chassis can handle it, and while it won't be as efficient as the PHEV model, this can act as a gateway drug into hybridization for performance enthusiasts.
    • Add CarPlay/Android Auto support to the head unit.
     
  19. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    My list


    Powertrain:

    • PHV or at least a bigger battery to capture more regen. The Gen 4's Li-Ion battery chemistry that Toyota is using seems to charge/discharge quickly. A larger capacity can help boost mpg with a lower cost than a full PHV.
    • Engine size is good. A touch more power and torque would be nice but I guess it can come from the battery side.
    • Ultracapacitors for regen storage overflow and quick acceleration bursts for city driving or highway merging.
    • Lighter components (motor/inverter/engine)
    • E-Four but with the same electric motors as the front.

    Body/suspension:

    • Maintain or slightly shrink overall length. (I know there's a balance between style and practicality. The Gen 4 looks less dorky with a longer body to smooth out gradients and avoided looking stubby like the Gen 2/3)
    • Increase wheelbase for more interior room
    • Keep width = good width for parking. Yes it's narrow for 3 ppl in the back but Toyota has the Camry for your passenger-carrying needs.
    • Triple seal door frames for improved sound insulation
    • Wheel well sound insulation (still too much tire/road noise)
    • Quieter tires (with this many years in making eco tires, tire manufacturers must have a way to improve the noise of LRR tires)
    • Increase ground clearance back to Gen 2/3's specifications.
    • Lighter curb weight (at the very least, don't get heavier)
    • I have no idea if it's even worth it but if you want to appeal to the younger drivers, perhaps offer AVS and tie it to the ECO/Normal/PWR modes.
    • More powerful washer jets (the Gen 3 ones are pathetic. The Gen 2s were awesome. Still deciding on the Gen 4).

    Interior:
    • While the seats and materials were improved for Gen 4, there are still some cost cutting - the wheel well between the rear door and the rear seat used to be padded and covered in upholstery - now it's hard plastic; If Toyota wants to keep the door panel as is with the rubberized material, fine, but at least give us a thicker padded door armrest; Also I can't tell the difference btwn the base One/Two/Two Eco door armrest upholstery and the "softtex-wrapped door armrest area" - both feel like vinyl to me
    • More USB ports. Just like the Gen 3 when it launched without a USB/iPod plug (which does not befit a high tech car), one USB port in the Gen 4/Prime is just laziness. Put two 2.5A ports for the rear passengers and one more in the centre console
    • Cable management - always have a small cutout for cable to run in/out of the centre console
    • More powerful Qi charger
    • manual lumbar support adjustment for the front passenger seat
    • LED interior lights

    Tech:
    • Include pedestrian detection in the HUD (helps in dark rainy conditions)
    • Perhaps FLIR in one of the MIDs?
    • LKA with Lane Trace Assist
    • Solar roof (either to charge the battery or to ventilate the interior. Ventilation is probably easier)
    • Some solution to keep the rear vertical window clear. It's always covered in crud.
     
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  20. RCO

    RCO Senior Member

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    Cor, blimey Tideland! Santa's gonna have to be very busy if you've been a really good boy this year. :eek:
     
    #60 RCO, Oct 12, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2017