Elon Musk knocks hydrogen, ruffles feathers

Actually it's right on target because hydrogen's number one problem is the insane inefficiency in its production and distribution. Of which batteries literally have none, so your coal comparison isn't really usefulPS. Whose feathers did he ruffle exactly? Toyota's and yours presumably, but anyone else?
Perhaps Toyota should look at the reactions of Microsoft and Palm execs to when the original iPhone came out. If they keep pushing ahead with their anti-EV and pro-FCV agenda, they are unfortunately doomed to repeat the same mistakes. Which honestly makes me sad, because Toyota does make some of the most reliable and well-designed vehicles on the road today.

 

if musk truly believes what he is saying, he should work to get the ucs on his side. spouting off to the media isn't going to change anyone's mind.

 

Right now about the only interesting R&D going on beside medical is car technology. I see the fuel cell auto work as important science. But really for anything to beat gasoline, as far as relatively cheap and relatively clean, is a stretch. Look at Gen4 Prius we got a nominal 60 MPG gasser with near zero emissions and no excuses about lack of space vs. regular car.

EV's were lucky in 2012 that was at the historical high point of gaso/elec costs and other factors made that a perfect time to give EV's a chance. But we need to realize that.

 

agreed. but i must say, once you get in a car where the engine doesn't fire right up? you want more of it. not necessarily saying what the environmental effects are. at least, that's my experience.

 

Pure EV's don't make much sense either for the vast majority of driver's either... I have much of the same criticisms of hydrogen, if the infrastructure is there to support it, in theory, a hydrogen economy would make a lot of sense, but that's most likely decades away at best...same as having the infrastructure to support electric cars.

Driving a Prius, I'm probably bias, but wish Toyota would push the boundaries of Hybrids and PHEV further, with more models and more powerful hybrid engines. Why did Toyota wait so long to come out with a Rav4 Hybrid? Why is there no Sienna Hybrid or PHEV? In any case, I'm glad there's more competition now in to force Toyota to innovate.

 

If I were head of an electric company, I would knock hydrogen as well. ZEV credits are more than double on fuel cell versus BEV. That'd make me worry about how much leverage proponents of H2 have on CARB.

 

Because Musk is just spouting off. Someone asks for his opinion on fuel cells, and he gives it. The only reason the press isn't spreading quotes about what Trollbait said fuel cells is purely a function of our levels of fame.

Note that Tesla isn't releasing press releases or making videos about hydrogen's short comings.

You are aware that we can make methane, right? And do so by using electricity and water, just like hydrogen, with the required carbon coming right out the air. Then required infrastructure to move it around is over 90% in place, and what needs to be built will be less per mile than the same for hydrogen.

H2FECVs emit water, but the carbon emissions are happening at the reformation plant. It could be made renewable, but it isn't right now, and it will be a minority of hydrogen used by cars in the near future. Now, plug ins also have shifted their emissions to a power plant. In the case of NOx, SOx, and particulates, this is a good thing. Since where they are emitted effects how much they have an effect on air quality for population centers. Move all the vehicle emissions to outside of the L.A. basin, and the city no longer has smog. It doesn't matter where the carbon is emitted for its effect on the world to happen.

Has anyone, anywhere made a synthetic coal? Since Diesel's prototype, has any ICE run on coal? Methane(plus liquid fuels derived from it), hydrogen, and batteries can be used has an energy carrier of solar power for vehicles, coal can not.

Modern natural gas CCGT plants can hit over 60%. In areas where they can also be used for central heat, and they reach 95%.

Those supporting H2FCEVs don't want the public thinking about PHEVs. A BEV vs H2FCEV debate is one more favorable to them.

A PHEV can provide much of the benefit of a BEV without the major limitation. They do have their own drawbacks in regards to packaging a large battery and ICE together. A future liquid fueled fuel cell can replace the ICE. Its greater efficiency can make shifting to renewable fuels more feasible.Then there is no technical reason for a H2FCEV to not also be a plug in. CARB policy disfavors PHEVs over BEVs and FCEVs though.

 

So it's okay for Toyota to ruffle feathers, but Musk needs to can it? Toyota doth protest too much.

 

Well...that explains a lot :\ From an environmental standpoint, it's idiotic to subsidize expensive toys like Tesla's and Mirai's for the well off, when Prius and Volts make the most sense for the mass market.

 

It depends on the structure of the incentive. The federal tax credit maxes out on a 16kWh battery; what is in the Volt. A person buying a Tesla is getting less per kWh of the battery pack than someone getting a Volt or Leaf, but the larger size of that Tesla pack creates larger demand in the car traction battery market than the packs of those cheaper cars. that demand gives battery companies incentive to invest in the research and production that has been driving the battery costs down.

A Tesla is out of reach of most people, but the tax credit it receives isn't, and it doesn't receive more for costing more. Considering the higher sales and property tax a Tesla would be charged, the person buying it is receiving even less incentive benefit. To fully milk the federal tax credit for all it is worth, a person should the Volt of Leaf.

 

Japan still offers hybrid tax credits, making them the best selling vehicles year in and year out. Selling hundreds of thousands of extra sub to low $20K Hybrids with their small battery packs would create even larger demand for batteries than a few tens of thousands of expensive BEVs; not to mention the accumulated efficiency gains from that fleet. Electric cars probably are the future, but not for another decade or two, I just personally think they're wasteful and impractical toys............but would still love to have a Tesla someday.

 

Wasteful?? They are less wasteful than a hybrid.
Some can be bought for less than a Prius as well.

People just don't buy hybrids. Sales in the U.S. Topped out between 3%-4% of market share.
$4 gas couldn't get them past that point.

No, if you want inefficient cars being replaced with efficient ones, EVs are the answer.

 

Hmmm, the many thousands of BEVers would disagree on the 'not practical for another decade or two' opinion. Go Elon! Fool-cells for cars? the name tells all. I think this will all play out, but only after many millions of $$$ are wasted. 'Tis the way we do things on planet Earth. Got an inefficient way to transport people when straight up electrons will do the job better? Alright, H2 it is. and by the way throw more money at it just to see, even though physics is against the whole H2 system versus battery storage. <sigh>

 

A 200 Mile battery is wasteful, when the average daily work commute is around 32 miles, that's a huge freakin battery you're paying for that you'll maybe only need on the weekends, even then, any trip over a hundred miles one way will require some logistical planning; that's something I don't have to worry about in my Prius.

Look, if you can afford a Tesla, good for you, I just don't want to have to subsidize part of your cost with tax dollars, especially when Hybrids stopped receiving them long time ago.

 

Charging loss; 10-15%
Vampire loss; Five days at the airport (vampire loss)
Don't forget a car spends 96% of its life "Parked" and the electric vehicle needs to stay plugged in for vampire loss.
Calculated monthly Kwh Vampire loss?

 

Seems like nikai is recycling some really old news. The last time Musk spouted off about hydrogen was about a year ago, toyota responded with the fueled by BS bs internet ads for the mirai. Still with low deliveries of miari and trouble building refueling,

From the OP linked piece.

That quote was from January 2014, 2 years ago
Tesla founder Elon Musk says hydrogen R&amp;D only to make automakers seem &#039;constructive&#039;

Bob Carter responded back then about how well the mirai would sell. Well I don't know why Toyota brings up these old quotes. I don't think it makes them look good.

 

Completely illogical.
The "average commute" has no relationship to an individual's commute.
If someone's commute is 120 miles a day, a 200 mile range is reasonable.
Do you feel a 10 gallon tank is wasteful because the average commute only uses about 10% of that?

As for subsidizing, our country spends far more total dollars subsidizing gas and oil than we do subsidizing Teslas.

 

Average commute is average commute, a large majority of the population is still going to be somewhere around that figure, but even if you're an outlier with a 100+ Mile commute, that large battery is still mostly a waste. A Tesla's "Gas Tank" cost $10,000 - $12,000 to replace, with a 120 Mile commute, you're paying a premium of over $4,000 just to have that extra reserve that you'll rarely use; if you're an average commuter now you're paying over $8,000 for all that wasted extra battery space. You may be fine with paying for that excess, but all that wasted Lithium drives up the cost of batteries for everyone else, and keeps prices of alt-fuel cars high. Prices may fall with new battery factories coming online (like the Gigafactory), but supply may not keep up with demand from some reports that I've read, so who knows how that'll effect prices.

A regular car's gas tank cost a few hundred dollars at the junk yard, btw.