Comparison with Hyundai ioniq?

how can anyone be educated in a car that hast been built yet? read your own article quotes: 'hyundai claims', hyundai believes'. it's too early to tell, and anyone who says differently is just hyping with hyundai. no doubt it will be a decent car, but either way, your best bet would be to wait until you can test drive both.
the reason i am a prius fan is proven performance and reliability. when another manufacturer matches that in real life, not just on paper, i will be a fan of that model too.

 

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[QUOTE="arescec, post: 2292077, member: 135071"
...... Honda had some good ideas but some bad results and (also) non-distinctive looks. ... .[/QUOTE]

Some good ideas, and some really weird ones. For example, the CR-Z would have probably had a better fuel economy if they had thrown the hybrid powertrain out ... which would have also made it competitive price-wise

 

Some good ideas, and some really weird ones. For example, the CR-Z would have probably had a better fuel economy if they had thrown the hybrid powertrain out ... which would have also made it competitive price-wise [/QUOTE]
If Honda made a CR-Z that competed with the Prius, I think they might have a winner. It'll probably be more fun to drive than a Prius. It'll bring in the younger crowd also.

 

To compete with the Prius, or, to be more accurate, to beat it on price, they came up with the 2nd (and, presumably) last generation Insight - which was another result-free effort.

 

honda has left me scratching my head on more than one occasion. i feel like they could do it, but i don't understand why they haven't.

 

Hyundai use the single motor parallel with DCT transmission, this is quite similar with VW Jetta hybrid.
I don't believe single motor is a good way for hybrid.
it has inherited weak points, when battery is exhausted, meanwhile the driver need power to accelerate, the ECU get into a dilemma, either charge the battery, or use the battery to help accelerate.
if charge, engine has to work in high load, lower fuel economy.
if use the battery, it will be hurted

Moreover, 43P motor is too small, if driver want to accelerate 1400kg car to 100km/h in 10 seconds, it needs at least 55kw motor power, otherwise, ICE has to kick in.

Does anybody know other reasons why those single motor hybrids can't get good mpg, except they lower much output power?

 

Ah, the longer I look at the Ioniq, the more I like Prius. In Ioniq, what's the deal about the dual clutch 6-speed transmission? Wasn't one of the advantages of hybrids the utilization of some kind of a E-CVT , which is what now Ford and Honda are putting into their new models as well as Toyota? Then I look at the front (and I may be mistaken), and I see this nose that seems a few inches taller and longer than the Prius's hood profile ... forward visibility is important, and also the longer the hood, the shorter is the rest of the car.

IN general, Ioniq is kind of almost purposefully uncool from every angle apart from the rear, where it happens to look like a previous generation Prius ... pathetiq. I got used to the main instrument cluster being in the middle of the dashboard instead of being partially obstructed by the steering wheel. Frankly, I don't think it will get a better market share or following than the Sonata Hybrid ...

 

Modern cars use either a CVT (eCVT in our Prii) or a dual clutch transmission (as in my wife's Subaru Crosstrek). Both have the advantage of eliminating the torque converter to get better mpg. Of the three I prefer the eCVT for its mechanical simplicity and would rate a dual clutch transmission as better than a classical CVT as lasting longer (CVT belt wear vs clutch wear).

JeffD

 

Some numbers from car leasing companies here ("base" versions) :
Ioniq: 3.6l/100km, top speed 185km/h, 0-100km/h 10.8sec, boot: 550/1505liters (seats up/down).
Prius: 3.1l/100km, top speed 180km/h, 0-100km/h 10.6sec, boot: 502/1633liters (seats up/down).
The Ioniq, while it has a bigger boot, is also shorter at the cost of rear passenger space. Forget adults back there for long trips, unlike the Prius.
The Prius costs, on paper at least, 10-15% more with similar equipment/options.
Given how badly they sell (I've seen a grand total of... zero except dealer's cars, and one from another country) and Toyota's pricing habits I'm pretty sure you can get most of that back with very little bargain.

 

my understanding from information I have seen is the there were several reasons for the DSG over CVT

DSG is lighter
DSG is less complex ?
people more used to the principle of gear steps, as opposed to the less common CVT type where in response to a request for more power the engine rev's rise before the vehicle speed

I will need to do a bit of research to see if my understanding of the above is correct

 

We've discussed this over the years:

• eCVT is simpler than stepped gear - you find only one set of gear teeth always engaged. In contrast, stepped gears have teeth that are only used for short periods of time. The electrical path determines if they have power applied.
• eCVT is harder to understand but mechanically less complex - no clutches although there is a permanently installed torque limiter on the flywheel. The problem is understanding how the gear function works is not trivial as there are two modes in which power flow changes over the electrical path.
• eCVT behavior can be learned just as stepped gear behavior was learned.
• eCVT splits the power into an electrical, ~28%, and mechanical path, ~72%. The electrical path loss is ~4.5% and the mechanical path ~5.8% giving an average of about ~5%. Depending upon the number of gears, ~2% per step, the dual-clutch should be in the same efficiency range.
• The dual-clutch has wear parts ... the clutches. Granted they are computer operated and should last a long, long time but the eCVT has no clutch. There is a torque limiter but it normally experiences no slippage.

Over time, Toyota has implemented fixed gears that allow MG1 and MG2 to spin faster and thus smaller for the same power. Being PriusChat, not HyundaiChat, we don't have a lot of technical information about the versions. However, I did see this in January 2009:




At the same show, I saw:


Bob Wilson

 

Money and time. Developing something like eCVT from scratch costs a LOT of money.

 

i was thinking more along the lines of prius. they have a good working system in the hyacc, why not drop it into a prius type body ang give toyota a go?

 

just been googling how the eCVT works, nice system

I hadn't realised how may different types of CVT there were, I think the information I have seen must relate to CVT not eCVT

the DSG in the Ioniq is a 6 speed, as far as I am aware it was specifically designed for the Ioniq as it is claimed to be high efficiency / low loss, some of the gear changes are a little slower than a manual as it matches the ICE rpm to transmission to reduce clutch wear, but in general it is very smooth with quick gear changes and tends to keep the ICE rpm low to reduce engine noise in the cabin

 

PRIUS Hybrid Synergy drive system is fully integrated with all the drive systems, electric and ICE.

Ioniq seems to use a gearbox separated from the ICE and Electric motors - I suspect they would have even been able to match it with a Manual gearbox - they chose Dual Clutch (not DSG which is VW group's name but DCT I think) for the transmission, possibly because Hyundai are already using DCT in other cars.

You mentioned about people preferring the feeling of stepped gears. I certainly did. The first Autos I ever drove were a GM Hydramatic and a 2 speed Fordamatic in the '60s, where the torque converter took forever to go from one gear to the next, feeling and sounding just weird and non-connected. Autos from the '80s and '90s started to get better in feel with lock-up torque converters or clutch packs. The first CVTs I drove I didn't like at all, and then they put forced steps - which felt less strange. I didn't like VW's jerky DSG either - and I hung on to Manual Gearboxes in most of my cars till PRIUS. Somehow, I don't mind PRIUS' drivetrain - I suspect it's because I accept that it's "different" in so many ways and also because I read about and mostly understand the principle of the drive.

 

My impression is many people here are not well-informed about the Ioniq model lineup.

Here are some links. The one leading to Hyundai's Canada site seems informative.

A forum where one finds a discussion on the drive trains. Others can be found on the Web.

There is also Hyundai's press release on the Ioniq lineup.

A review from hybridCars comparing the Ioniq Plug-in with the Prime.
As of today, the Ioniq plug-in not being released yet, it is much too early to tell how theu compare really.

And a Youtube on the plug-in and EV versions.

I recently test drove the european EV Premium version and was deeply impressed by it. I'm considering buying it instead of a Prime. But that's another story...

Jan

 

There is certainly a lot more to learn about the Ioniq like price, cargo space, etc. But I was turned off by the 2016 Prius for a number of reasons so for our second Prius we bought a 2015 model, rejecting the 2016. I see a couple of attractive things about the Ioniq.

1) No white toilet bowl accents. This is a huge turn off for me in the 2016 Prius

2) Gauges in front of the driver. After almost 9 years of owning a Prius I still hate the gauges being pushed toward the center of the dash board.

I wonder if the cruise control stick rotates with the steering wheel in the IoniQ? That's another thing that is standard Toyota feature that I don't like. After years of driving the two Prius cars and our 4Runner I find myself hunting for the cruise lever. They don't make the directional stick or wiper sticks rotate with the wheel. I wonder why Toyota wants to rotate one of three stalks?

I'll be interested in the price of the plug-in version.

 

Yes, the Cruise Control stick is a pain - you never know where it is. [Worse are flappy-paddle gear shifters which rotate with the wheel - you want to change gear while on a mountain road - might as well consult a psychologist first - you'll need to after.]

I don't mind the gauges in the middle - I rarely look at them with the Heads Up Display.

And - while the white is unusual, I've had more compliments about it brightening up the interior, which, in a lot of cars (VW, AUDI MERC) - are drab & boring - BMW 1 series has white features which lift it. And - white doesn't show the dust like piano black.

I'll certainly look at IONIQ when it comes to Australia - TOYOTA hasn't brought any Plug-Ins to Australia despite them being in other markets for many years - but HYUNDAI have announced it coming in 2017, so, unless TOYOTA has changed their policy by 2½ yrs, I'll check HYUNDAI out. With my driving pattern, and rooftop SOLAR it would be a good move for me.