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Nuther new bee....2001 Prius

Discussion in 'Generation 1 Prius Discussion' started by Herb Gayheart, Jan 16, 2016.

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  1. Herb Gayheart

    Herb Gayheart Junior Member

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    I recently bought a 2001 Prius...mainly just for the learning experience since it cost $150 dollars.. 102,000 miles on the odometer... Have three other vehicles so no worries! I knew that the individual batteries , if good, were worth 25 to 50 bucks each...

    The first incident happened when I picked it up... A mechanic bud of mine had been driving it with a dealer tag for several years...but told me before I bought it that it would loose power after a few miles...necessitating a coast to the side of the road.. turning the key off and on and going on ones merry way...well and good..I understood that others would have that problem..so we jumped the little lawnmower sized battery and I pulled the auto a few feet toward his garage so he could empty it of a misc. collection of tools , fishing rods .etc... That done, I got in it , hoping to drive it a few miles to home...but NO!!! smoke began to billow out the trunk....acrid smelling smoke...

    Still no worries..just something to fix.!! We loaded it on a flat bed and took it home...no charge...:)

    When home I discovered that the Large orange molex that connected the voltage sense wires from the individual batteries hand melted and burned up.. Wondering what it is molded from given the acrid smoke??

    So...out came the battery....and an order for a battery controller and wire harness on ebay...120 bucks for both..free shipping...naturally....Installed...charged battery ....and started auto...all was well...it ran...but Orange triangle was lit, check engine lite on, and brake lite on...abs lite on... Not a big surprise...its called trouble shooting and learning....
    Around the block I went...brakes sort of work ..soft...country driving...little traffic...no worries!! Now a rumble from the rear driver side wheel... wheel bearing of course... back to EBAy...55 bucks and free shipping... around the block again...and noise gone...abs lite off..(I had discovered the abs connector was disconnected on that wheel... when replacing the hub assy...

    Ok... longer drives...country roads...no tags, no insurance,. no cops!! :) OOps!! after a few miles,, engine races but no power, traction motor may be pulling a bit for I coast to the side of the road ...turn key off , wait a bit,,,back on....and away I go...Home by the shortest way... FUN!!
    I borrowed an OBD II error code device and found no codes...OK.... Its a Prius and likely the reader is not savvy to read codes for a Prius... Now what...? :) Herb
     
    #1 Herb Gayheart, Jan 16, 2016
  2. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    Thanks for the report ... I've added this as the sixth story on the fires at ECU sense connector thread.

    Did you happen to save any of the old stuff that was replaced? I am interested in learning more about the sequences of events that lead to these incidents.

    Thanks,
    -Chap
     
    #2 ChapmanF, Jan 16, 2016
  3. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    hi! grab a mini vci on ebay and an old windows laptop to read the specific toyota codes, and do much more to help repair your car. for specific details, see the many threads here on mini vci and toyota tech stream software. all the best!(y)
     
    #3 bisco, Jan 16, 2016
  4. Herb Gayheart

    Herb Gayheart Junior Member

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    One

    What I did not say, my bud...still a bud after he sold me this car!! :) was in the car and I had my head in the trunk getting ready to remove the jumper cables once the car started....Never got the chance...there was a literal explosion that sent be back a few steps and the smoke billowed...I removed the jumper cables and the car was now dead... once home, I removed the battery bank, took all of the bus bars and removed the battery controller ecm... Once inside the ecm , I saw that the board that held the male connector was burned beyond repair..and the connector was partially melted.. I will see if I can dig up the affected parts and take photos... I think that the Plastic that is used in the connector has something to do with the spontaneity of the fire and really a cherry bomb size explosion...Herb


    Did....Have two laptops....so good to go...in a week or so...only one left the seller in Cal.. said...likely meaning that it will come from China??

    None of the local readers that I have access to read the check engine codes for this puppy... as you indicate..


    Replying to my reply:)

    My concern was Phosgene (spelling) gas!!
     

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    #4 Herb Gayheart, Jan 16, 2016
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  5. DRACO

    DRACO Member

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    Model:
    One
    Oh my :eek: Please keep us posted
     
    #5 DRACO, Jan 16, 2016
  6. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    this wasn't an explosion from a spark at the jumper cable 12v connection being removed?
     
    #6 bisco, Jan 16, 2016
  7. Herb Gayheart

    Herb Gayheart Junior Member

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    Never got the chance... The car went dead and I held my breath long enough to remove the cables... The pictures show the source of the problem,,noise...:)
     
    #7 Herb Gayheart, Jan 16, 2016
  8. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    When you've got 300 volts and 100+ amps available, there's no need to reach very far to explain a cherry bomb size explosion. I think electronics manufacturers have pretty well established the plastics that work well in their applications. My guesses about how the incident was touched off would go in other directions, but once it was touched off, pretty much any plastic has a temperature where it will vaporize, and the vapor is likely combustible, and hitting that temperature isn't much of a trick if you're dissipating 30 kilowatts in a space the size of a quarter.

    Thanks for the pics, I'll link them on the sense-connector-fires thread.

    To say this part as gently as possible (because finger-wagging really isn't any part of it), it does sound as if you and your bud had some indications of HV system troubles over a period of time, maybe years, that were not proactively checked out and diagnosed, so maybe "spontaneity" isn't quite the right word when describing this failure.

    -Chap

    If I had won the Powerball I'd spend it right now on a time machine to get a good set of HV battery voltage measurements just before you started the car, and then right after, as it began charging.

    The ECU sense connector that failed is never disconnected or without voltage, even when the car is off, so in general there is nothing to prevent a failure in the middle of the night when no one is near the car, if that's when it's gonna happen.

    So it's interesting that in your case it did not occur until just after the car was started. I would have to suspect tracks of something conductive that had developed while the car was in storage, that did not conduct at harmful levels at whatever (probably lowish) voltage the battery was sitting at in storage, but did as soon as MG1 was spinning and the voltages came up to charging levels.

    Either that, or a failure originating within the ECU itself, some conductive path that wasn't in use until the car went IG-ON and the ECU's sample/hold switches started closing.

    -Chap
     
    #8 ChapmanF, Jan 16, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 16, 2016
  9. Herb Gayheart

    Herb Gayheart Junior Member

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    One

    The car, near as I know had sat for two or years...and surely the batteries were down....but when I took the battery pack out of the car..never having started it beyond the smoke and noise.. the individual batteries measured within the correct range... actually the way they are hooked...I measured every two...and found 14.5 or more on each pair..figuring 6 1.2 cells should measure 7.2. or more. . There may have been one or two batteries that measured less...and I am going to check the bank again to see if I have a weak one. maybe two..would be a cheap fix...
    I replaced the sense bundle of wires and cleaned them up for the set that I bought was necessarily used.. And the used battery controller is suspect also...save that I seem to have the same symptoms mentioned when I bought the auto... It drives...no smoke!! :)

    The Bud...simply stated that the auto would loose power and he would coast to the side of the road and restart and go on his way...Same as I think I am experiencing now.. or so it seems..

    Also...I did not and do not know if the full battery voltage is sent through this plug to the battery controller? It surely seems so..based on the evidence...I would like to see an schematic... Seems to me the full voltage check could be taken off of the high current relays..?

    Neither the mechanic nor I have any experience with these autos... and given the age and value...he was not going to invest any money...I am getting into the discomfort territory myself...have 375 bucks in the critter...!! :) And just bought the OBDII connector and downloaded the Toyota software...oops...another 8 bucks....make that 383 dollars..:)

    Spent my time in the Computer electronics repair business... IBM and another company...Storage Technology Corp..

    Thanks again...on my way up the learning curve...and no singed eyebrows or worse thus far....!! :) Age 72 likely the most fun I will have for a while!! Herb
     
    #9 Herb Gayheart, Jan 16, 2016
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  10. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    The controller needs more than the full voltage across the whole stack, it measures intermediate voltages over each pair of modules, so it can keep track of balance. (There isn't much it can do about balance, but it can track it, and notify you of problems.)

    You'd find the info in the Wiring Diagram Manual at techinfo.toyota.com ... where you'll also find the New Car Features Manual (very worthwhile, it's the one that tells you what all the stuff on the car is, what it's for, and how it does that), and the Repair Manual volumes themselves.

    With your techinfo subscription you'll be up to 398, but it's worth it. As you've already guessed, it's a great car,but knowing what you're doing around it can help keep the excitement to a minimum.

    -Chap
     
    #10 ChapmanF, Jan 16, 2016
  11. Herb Gayheart

    Herb Gayheart Junior Member

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    One
    Indeed...it was quickly apparent to me that the controller looked at the voltage across each two Nicad batteries in the stack... based up on the wiring harness that was part of the smoke and noise..once I got the cover apart..

    some early You tube viewing gave me the info to pull the battery stack and the orange plug(just a jumper in this car) ...

    If it weren't so cold, I would measure the two day static voltages...still have the cover off...and the fan shroud on and the fan hooked up since I noticed , I think, an air flow switch in the plenum... Herb
     
    #11 Herb Gayheart, Jan 16, 2016
  12. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    I don't think that's what you noticed. But you wouldn't be guessing wrong, if you were using the manual.

    -Chap
     
    #12 ChapmanF, Jan 16, 2016
  13. Herb Gayheart

    Herb Gayheart Junior Member

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    Must be missing something...Does the controller sample two batteries with each wire to the orange plug? Sure looked that way to my eye after I pulled the cover...Herb
     
    #13 Herb Gayheart, Jan 16, 2016
  14. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    Whatever you said you "noticed" in the plenum wasn't an airflow switch.

    You willingness to dive in and take on a project is admirable and inspiring. Now that you're in it, you'll make steadier progress with better chances of success if you learn more about the car than you will by guessing and youtube.

    -Chap
     
    #14 ChapmanF, Jan 16, 2016
  15. Herb Gayheart

    Herb Gayheart Junior Member

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    One
    it seemed natural there should be some thermal sensing in the Plenum.. for there seems to be 4 or 5 thermal sensor on the battery pack...and as I laid the blower pickup on top of the pac,,,roughly in place...I plugged the module in ...and noticed that there were more wires than expected..a cursory exam showed 4 wires and it seemed to me that it was airflow and temperature combined...

    kinda off of where I need to go at this time...will learn more about this module as I go along.. Just trying to diag the no power coast to the side of the road currently...RED triangle /check engine syndrome...and the spongy brakes to be fixed..

    have the toyota software downloaded and the adapter cable on its way...

    What is the purpose of that module...not Germain at this time...but never hurts to learn something new...Herb
     
    #15 Herb Gayheart, Jan 16, 2016
  16. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    Is there some minimum number of times I need to mention your $15 access to the manuals that explain all this, and whatever future questions will occur to you in the course of your project?

    -Chap
     
    #16 ChapmanF, Jan 16, 2016
  17. Herb Gayheart

    Herb Gayheart Junior Member

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    One
    Once was enough...:) More than that and one becomes overbearing....:)

    I am here to learn...and I have thick skin... I own 4 lists at Yahoo..and I understand behaviors .

    My years of work were in the electronics business...so not likely to be a typical rookie... I have a fairly quick grasp of systems..electrical and electronic..and I have had the car for a bit over a week...fixed three problems... more to go...

    I will consider the manual sooner or later...just not at this time... Herb
     
    #17 Herb Gayheart, Jan 16, 2016
  18. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    Well, PriusChat's a funny place. It attracts a lot of people who do have years of background in electronics or similar areas ... so around here, that wouldn't be such an atypical rookie as you might think. And if you've been here a while, it gets to be not an unfamiliar sight when a new poster shows up and seems to be convinced "I have such a quick grasp of things, I can skip learning the ins and outs of this car before I tear into it." Sometimes, you do just watch them and think "maybe it will take some dramatic experience, like setting their battery on fire, before they reconsider that approach." You've got the advantage of arriving at PriusChat with that step already completed. Part of it, anyway. ;)

    Anyways, you know where the water is, if you get thirsty. :)

    -Chap
     
    #18 ChapmanF, Jan 17, 2016
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  19. Herb Gayheart

    Herb Gayheart Junior Member

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    I appreciate the help from all sides... and I may buy the manual . :) I think my old brain has learned a lot since buying this puppy a week or two ago.. I watched the demonstrations of the motive system on You tube...saw the drive train in its separate parts and will watch again to firm up some of the things that were taught...I also watched several folks removing and repairing battery packs...learned that the motors one or both are PM three phase AC...driven by battery and gas motor..... I understood that the inverter also regulates the charge to the accessory battery.that when coasting the MG1 motor charges the battery...that when the gas motor starts it uses mg2 to charge the battery if needed.. I learned that the inverter has its own cooling pump and radiator,, that the ac is driven by a sealed DC or maybe ac compressor, that since the motor does not run all the time...brake boosting is driven by an accessory hydraulic or vacuum pump. That the mechanical drive assy uses special lubrication...near tranny fluid I think? I have learned and ordered the Mini VCI and have downloaded the Toyota software for my computer/laptop.. that there is a Yahoo group .and I have learned that a manual is available cheap!! Herb (wholot more to learn)
     
    #19 Herb Gayheart, Jan 17, 2016
  20. Q*bertZ

    Q*bertZ Member

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    I'll bet they got the same error I got. They just continued to erase the OBD2 errors instead of fixing the problem. Mine had a communication error with the HV ECU. I checked that plug that plugs the HV sensor wires into the ECU and sure enough a couple of them were corroded. I replaced the sensor wire harness with a used one. I guess I prevented mine from getting worse and causing a fire.
     
    #20 Q*bertZ, Jul 6, 2022
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