The Toyota Mirai (FCV) Thread

that's right - most likely 1 solution will not work - in our lifetimes, but shortly thereafter - as population increases & expensive fuels likely become the norm - whatever is cheapest will work by default. You tell me what that will be .... hydrogen created from something else? or electricity created from something else based on any tech in the foreseeable future.
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so you stop at a QC station located near shopping. it's not hard to do. Hell, I did that for 2 weeks when i initially got my Leaf! I had the charging cable sent out to be upgraded to run 240 V. 15 minutes and I had enough charge for my commute. It was just like a gas station stop. Longer range EVs would do even better. FCV...what a joke.

 

I find it amusing how debates of future choices have conclusions drawn already.

 

So my Boss turns to me the the ther day and says, the Production Studio Lot we work at is getting a one (1) MEGA WATT Fuel Cell. Really I says... yep we will never run out of power.... we are pulling out and getting rid of one 30 meter Satellite Dish & Support Shack! It's modular, we are getting 4 250kW packages that are combined for a Megawatt. That is just too friggin cool, I can't wait to see them install it! When it's finished. I will post a pic! Also one of the Power Out Meter!

 

Sure: Toyota, CARB; FCV are the winners. We need to give them a lot more money and credits than plug-ins

Me: Let's help both equally, and do a small test. FC advocates; That's not fair toyota says fc are better they will win.

Lets help with R&D for fuel cells in this pre-commercial stage. Let's not pretend that people are going to go flocking to it or pay much more for fuel because its so much more convient than charging at home or public chargers or gas stations for phevs.

Even Toyota in their 2050 slides thinks plug-ins will stay ahead through 2050. I think there is a good chance even if fcv make it, they will run on cng or methanol and not high pressure or liquid hydrogen.

Why the hype that the future has to be hydrogen, and bevs are so far behind? I know you didn't say that but toyota did. I'd love to see 1200 kg/day stations that only need $500,000 of public money. It looks like we will end up building mainly 200kg/day stations that cost $2M each of public money. Fuel costs are on top of that. It was only supposed to be $1M each in 2004, and private companies where supposed to come up with most of that by now. I just can't by the rosy scenarios until we actually see a desirable car and fueling station combination. Those are both ... a decade away. I do think if toyota spends the money and builds 100,000 fcv a year, they can drop fc + tanks down bellow $10,000/car. The problem then is if they can put it in a vehicle people like, and if someone can make the fueling cheaper, or get the government to pay the difference.

 

Back to the future
Toyota Mirai hydrogen car makes Hollywood debut - LA Times

Cool slightly lowered more realistic expectations for 2015 and 2016 but toyota still thinks 3000 fcv in the us cumulative by end of 2017. 14 public retail stations by the end of the year in California, which may be a reason 200 leasees dropped to 100. I'm sure they can lease the 100 to pre-orders in japan.

Ad of the Day: Here Is Toyota's Full 5-Minute Spot With Marty McFly and Doc Brown | Adweek
Did watch the back to the future II movie today (the worst of the series of movies), and forgot how much product placement (advertising) was done there. The best and least invasive was the toyota truck, which is now a classic today.

 

Today at 6:40 PM saw the first Mirai on the freeway, it was white, no plates yet, only Toyota of Tustin plates on it. It looks really big and futuristic compared to the other cars on the road and especially against a Tesla. The Tesla is already starting to look dated. Can't wait to see more of them on our roads! Go Toyota!

 

One man's futuristic is another's weirdmobile. The Model S is what, 4 years old now? It seems the "already" is a bit misplaced. It's a more conservative, luxurious design in any case, meant to be more attractive than superficially eye-catching.

 

All in the eye of the beholder.

DBCassidy

 

Ugly, less efficient, slower, and more Un-eco than a Tesla. what a lose, lose, lose, lose...wait, how many losses is that? nevermind

 

Plays friendly with the industry it is struggling against.

 

Toyota? Friendly?



alright . . . if you say so, but I don't get how friendly they can be, running dishonest ads like that.
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Judging the stance of an entire company based on a single advertisement stint for a small division is what?

Step back to see the whole picture. The oil industry has the most to lose, but it has a massive set of resources to fight back with.

Switching to hydrogen production & distribution is a great next step, something they won't just outright dismiss as a viable future. It's a good fit for an industry with an non-renewable product.

 

John is quite right.

To judge the stance of a company you can't just look at a single ad.

You need to take into account statements from executives... um... never mind.

You need to take into account statements from dealers and salespeople....oops.

You need to take into account actions such as making EVs (what?? Canceled?? ...) never mind.

You need to take into account the nationwide rollout... (No? Delayed?? Oh, canceled)

You need to take into account the regional release of the shortest ranged PHEV (what? Hasn't been made for half a year and won't be till the end of the year??).

I give up

 

You should. We could easily tear GM a new one if we held them to past statements, positions, and campaigns. We don't. Instead, we hammer them on new mistakes.

As for Toyota, especially with respect to Ioniq, what isn't on target about that?

Don't forget, fuel-cell is for a different market and is on a different schedule.

 

.......and indeed, you & I, & many of us, over a decade ago DID rip GM a new one, as they promoted the Hummer, crushed EV1's, and dissed the Gen II Prius. GM now, is working hard to improve their Volt & other plugins. On PC, We mostly hear praise about GM from our fellow members.
Why the summary?
Because the statement "WE" could tear GM a new one, is not what's happening. Most praise GM for their turn around products. I respect john's right to dis the volt vis a vis the prius. But it comes across inconsistent - to put forth as a defence for Toyota's 'efficiency' expansion beyond the synergy drive (to FC's) - By framing a premise, "WE" might hammer GM for present day mistakes. No one's even thinking of doing that. I think the thread may give rise to "why can't Toyota make a sporty, powerful luxurious uber efficient 5+ seater.
The OP may give rise to why can't any other manufacturers best Tesla too. But to suggest (first) that Toyota is 'friendly' towards plugins, then (2nd) deflecting Toyota's negative plug-in ad campaign as a one time only thing, then (3rd) when it's pointed out to be ongoing, deflecting to all of us bagging on GM ....
that's just not addressing issues. Lack of a direct counterpoint is a tacit acknowledgement IMO.
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Addressing issues isn't effective, hence all the tangents. The better approach is addressing goals.

What milestones & targets should be aiming for?

What are we really trying to accomplish?

 

Besting Tesla? according to the OP, Mirai is 'the' future, per their ad campaign & lobby efforts, even tho it most likely will go no where, other than rob tax dollars & short better tech R&D.
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GM's goal is the same as Toyota's. To make money.

As for personal goals of posters, that really doesn't affect what GM or Toyota does.

My personal goal is to convince as many people as possible to drive as efficiently as possible as quickly as possible. The company that has stated and acted as that is a goal of theirs as well is Tesla.

I have been far more successful at getting people to buy Tesla's than Prii.
I figure the reason for that is most people don't have the same goal as I, which is fine.

 

Tesla has many goals. Which ones?

Notice how GM very specifically homed on in delivering a 200-mile range EV for $30'ish too?



Merged

Yes... which explains such low volume expectations for gen-2 Volt. Bolt will gobble up many of the $7,500 tax-credit opportunities remaining. Once that quota limit is reached, profitability becomes even more of a challenge. Mainstream volume is far more of a challenge than selling to the much smaller group of enthusiasts.