2005 Gen-II - Strange whirring noise, mechanics disagree

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Care, Maintenance and Troubleshooting' started by Jason Antman, Sep 28, 2015.

  1. Jason Antman

    Jason Antman Junior Member

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    Greetings! I've had an account here for a while (since I bought my 2005 prius in November 2012 with 150,000 miles) and have found it really informative, but haven't posted until now.

    I have a 2005 Prius with 218,000 miles. Over the past month or two it's started making a horrible noise, which has finally gotten to the point that I can barely stand driving it. I used to keep my radio around 25 or so, but now need to crank it to twice that to hear anything. I can't tell what it is - it sounds vaguely like wheel bearings, but somehow different. The front bearings and a trans drain/fill was done by an independent shop 6,000 miles ago. That shop says the noise is the transmission and definitely not the bearings. My Toyota dealer says the noise is the bearings and definitely not the transmission.

    Here are two videos I took this afternoon, which seem to more or less capture it, though it does sound a bit different recorded on a phone than in the cabin:

    (this one has a clearer example of the noise)

    Background:

    I didn't have any complaints with the car until just before the 200,000 mile service was due, when I started hearing front bearing noise (I've had bearings done in about 5 vehicles, so it sounded pretty obvious to me). I brought it to the dealer and was quoted an outrageous amount for front hub assemblies (they told me they couldn't do the bearings, only the whole hub assembly), sway bar end links, alignment, transmission flush, tire rotation and the engine top end service.

    I got a much better quote from my local mechanic who I've used for about 3 years, so I had him do the work. This was back in June, at 212,417. He said that they'd never done the flush on a Prius transmission before, but they had the shop manual and were sure of the procedure, and that their Valvoline rep confirmed the correct fluid, and gave them a written warranty in case of any problems. He did note that "a fair amount of metal shavings came out with the old fluid" when they did a drain and fill (not a flush). He also told me that the tires were worn unevenly so I could expect a bit of road noise after the rotation and re-alignment. They an oil change, sway bar end links, front bearings, tire rotation, alignment and reans drain and fill with Valvoline Max ATF, "Toyota Type WS fluid spec." He told me the same thing about the front hubs being complete assemblies, and the part he listed (PBR930641) appears to agree with that.

    A few weeks after I had the work done, the car started getting noisier while driving. At first I didn't think much of it, as I'd been warned about increased road noise with the unevenly worn tires. That was about three months ago. Over time it got worse, but my life's been pretty hectic, so I didn't do anything about it. Two weeks ago my wife and I drove about an hour on the highway, and she told me in no uncertain terms how much worse the noise had gotten, so I brought it in to the mechanic.

    I took it to the same shop that did all the work, and his mechanic took it for a drive. He told me that the bearings didn't make any noise when he spun the wheels on the lift and the noise seemed to be coming from the center of the car (which I'm not sure I agree with) and it was the transmission. He said it's sealed so they wouldn't touch it. They sent me to the local Aamco, whose mechanic has worked there for almost 30 years. He didn't have time to look at the car, but told me that they can't repair the CVT, they'd need to replace it with a remanufactured one, and I could count on $2-4,000 USD depending on availability.

    I then took the car back to the Toyota dealer and had them look at it. Their Prius mechanic said he'd never dealt with trans issues in a Prius before, and had only done bearings on a handful, but he thought it was definitely the front bearings.

    I'm bringing it back to the first mechanic this week to try and convince him it's the bearings, since he said the parts and labor are still under warranty and if it is that, he'll do the replacement for free. I've spent about 3 hours reading through this forum and everything seems to point to wheel bearings, so hopefully on second glance he'll agree.

    Any suggestions for next steps? Is there something neither of these shops are considering, or that the sound in the videos tells anyone? Should I just take it somewhere *else* for a third opinion (a tie breaker)? The year hasn't been too good to me financially, so I'm rather worried about having someone do $1-2,000 of work (on a car with about $2-3,000 blue book) and not fix the problem.

    Also, if it's relevant, I obsessively track my actual fuel mileage on every fill. There hasn't been any significant change since 6 months before I had all the work done.

    (BTW - as long as I've had the car, I've never had the MIL activate, or any other indication of a problem that the car knows about.)
     
    #1 Jason Antman, Sep 28, 2015
  2. ILuvMyPriusToo

    ILuvMyPriusToo Senior Member

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    "Valvoline Max ATF, "Toyota Type WS fluid spec." has me worried. Everyone where seems to be extremely careful about using the correct Toyota fluid, not much else.
     
    #2 ILuvMyPriusToo, Sep 28, 2015
  3. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    have the dealer replace the bearings, if that fixes it, hand the bill to the mech.
     
    #3 bisco, Sep 28, 2015
  4. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    How fast do you have to be traveling when the sound appears?
    If the noise appears at a low speed, can you turn the steering wheel to the left and right while moving at that speed to see whether the sound character changes? If the sound changes as the vehicle changes direction, that would be another bit of evidence that a wheel bearing is the problem.
     
    #4 Patrick Wong, Sep 28, 2015
  5. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    did they check the constant velocity joints?
     
    #5 bisco, Sep 28, 2015
  6. JimN

    JimN Let the games begin!

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    From Maxlife ATF for Toyota WS | ATF, Differential, Trans, Brakes, P/S | Bob Is The Oil Guy

    Here's what Valvoline says...

    Suitable for use in:
    Ford MERCON®, MERCON®V, MERCON®SP and MERCON®LV applications
    GM DEXRON®-II, DEXRON®-III and DEXRON®-VI applications
    Nissan/Infiniti Matic D, Matic J, Matic K, and Matic S applications
    Mitsubishi Diamond SP-II and SP-III applications
    Hyundai/ KIA SP-II, SP-III, SP-IV and SPH-IV applications
    Subaru ATF and ATF-HP applications
    Toyota/Lexus Type T, T-III, T-IV and WS (except hybrids) applications
    Honda/Acura ATF-Z1 (except in CVTs) applications
    Allison C4 and TES-389 applications
    Mercedes Benz NAG1 applications
    Volvo passenger car applications and STD 1273.41
    Volkswagen TL52162
    Voith H55.6335.33(G607) and H55.6335.33(G1363) applications
     
    #6 JimN, Sep 28, 2015
  7. specialtyneed

    specialtyneed Junior Member

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    Your trans has wrong fliud in it she is suffering accelerated failure from that bad mistake and its not gonna be covered. They are all gonna play blame game as the particles / flakes gave them an out and you might (extremely probable) have been suffering a internal bearing or gear failure anyway. Buy a CVT from a salvage and find a real mechanic. Like the last poster said USE ONLY OEM TOYOTA HYBRID rated Trans WS Fluid. It is different. The ONLY other one that my extensive research produced is the same OEM supplier to Toyota MFG'r brand in a grey bottle something Japenese sounding like Idemitzu. Tried to buy the case from Ebay or Amazon but they yanked it and cancelled my order stating a pricing error. Having said this, still worth your while to try to get those Idiots to make it right. Never ever trust a salesman. Research, verify & test, prove it!

    SM-G900T ?
     
    #7 specialtyneed, Sep 29, 2015
  8. edthefox5

    edthefox5 Senior Member

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    That's extremely loud. The Max Life didn't cause it as it was making the loud noise before he had the fluid changed. Sounds like the trans to me.

    There have been a few reports of failed differential sections in the trans resulting in metal shavings in the fluid upon change. Usually from never having the fluid changed and extreme mileage. Or a very worn inner cv joint that beats up the diff final drive. Usually results in a bad seal where the inner meets the trans and you'll see trans fluid weeping right there. At 212,000 the cv's are long gone.

    If it was me I would have the trans fluid pulled again and the fluid checked carefully for any new metal savings. Take the fluid out in the sun and look for metallic shiny flakes.

    Do what Pat suggests and then take it out on a nice high speed run then pull over and see how hot the front wheels are getting. A $19.95 Infrared Thermometer works great for this test. The hot wheel will be the bearing suspect if it does indeed have a bad wheel bearing. And with that ir tester you can check the trans temp too. Its water cooled so it stays pretty cool. Never goes above 190F if my memory serves when I did some testes years ago. Take a shot of the diff section before and after a nice run.
    See who is unhappy there.

    Go over to Lusciousgarage.com and check there blogs. They discuss the diff final drive failure.

    Btw, nothing wrong with MaxLife ATF in this car. Lots of people over at Bitog using it in there Prius. I have been using RedLine D6 in my car for 8 years and 90,000 miles. Pulls perfect UOA's.
    Strictly a question of GL-4 quality you desire.
     
    #8 edthefox5, Sep 29, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2015
  9. epoch_time

    epoch_time Active Member

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    Toyota ws transaxle fluid is one of the thinest oils and is the only fluid that should be used in a prius..

    Your transaxle has lost most of its fluid and sounds like there is absolutly no lubrication whatsoever!!!

    The thicker valvoline maxlife probably blew the transaxle seals from excess pressure and has lost all its fluid !

    You have loud unlubricated gear tooth grind, at least one blown transaxle bearing (audioable axle and bearing wobble) at the axle seals..

    Or if you never noticed any oil leakage..Your mechanic simply forgot to put any fluid in at all..

    Your mechanic should be held responsible. Take firm grip on the axle where it enters the transaxle housing and shack vigerously you will see the blown bearing and ruined seal..

    The op said he had only wheel bearing noise before transaxle fluid replacement.
     
    #9 epoch_time, Sep 29, 2015
  10. Jason Antman

    Jason Antman Junior Member

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    Thanks, all, for the amazingly detailed responses. I'm going back to the original mechanic tomorrow morning. My plan is:

    (1) Have him take it for another drive. If I can convince him it's the bearings and he'll do it for free, the worst case (well... assuming he does the work, and does it correctly...) is that it's the trans, and I'm right back where I started, but have eliminated one possibility.
    (2) Failing that, at least I'll be able to get the car up on his lift and take a closer look at the trans.

    The outer CV joints were done around 130k, and looked fine to me last week. I'd been checking for trans fluid leaks religiously every few days, for a few weeks after the work was done, and didn't notice anything.

    Assuming nothing definitive comes out of the trip tomorrow morning, I'll try the IR temp sensor trick (I've been wanting an excuse to get one for a while) and/or bring it to a trans shop for their opinion.

    Thanks again! I'll update if/when I find anything out.
     
    #10 Jason Antman, Sep 29, 2015
  11. Jason Antman

    Jason Antman Junior Member

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    Ok, thanks again to everyone. I brought it back to the original mechanic this morning, who did the bearings in June. I told him what Toyota said, and he said, "ok." His explanation - though I don't remember the exact words - was essentially that he wasn't 100% sure it was the transmission, but he'd just done the bearings, and he knows the transmissions on these hybrids are "weird", so that was his guess.

    He swapped out both front wheel bearings and the horrible noise is GONE. In fact, I guess it'd been so bad for so long that this evening I was a bit unsettled by how quiet it was.

    In the course of the work, he did bring up 2 things:
    (1) There's still some sort of whine or bearing noise there, but barely audible. I can't be certain, but I don't hear anything distinct that I think is new (i.e. since I bought the car).
    (2) The struts are shot.

    But, problem was the front bearings not the trans. The supplier warrantied them, so the work was done at no cost and the shop got reimbursed for labor. Since they're complete hub assemblies, the only thing I can think is that maybe there was a bad batch/production run, since I got them both done at the same time?

    Thanks, all! After these last few things, I'm going to reassess whether I want to keep the car or not (specifically if it's worth it to me to put the work in to the struts, new set of tires, etc.). If I decide to keep it, I'll have the trans looked at by someone who knows what they're doing, and I'll also look into pulling a sample of the trans fluid to send off to blackstone labs.
     
    #11 Jason Antman, Sep 30, 2015
  12. specialtyneed

    specialtyneed Junior Member

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    Nobody (almost) is listening close enough. These cases are always multiple faults. Yes, terrible noise found to be defective bearings and wild goose chase due to failure to isolate properly due to not honing in closely & carefully aside, Your trans is still suspect due to the noise i.e. whine is still there. Basic fact is that besides folks taking nutso chances of crazy thick fluid is eventually there will be problems usually right before they decide to sell it quickly...Too thick max life crap is TOO thick (eco in here) and this is not just "C" shaped mains, rods, ring clearances, calibrated gaps in oil control rings, tiny engineered lifter orfices, journal sizes and oil pump clearance we are taking chances with its only electric Motor Generator MG1 & MG2 and lots of dielectric insulating coating on the wiring at risk not to mention very precise planetary & ring gearing in that allegedly mysterous box. Oh and did I forget those ball bearings?? Really, we are gonna put thick fluid in boxes with high / close tolerance ball bearings designed for fuel efficiency and think its not harming anything? Taking it to a guy who sees the CVT as "weird", is crazy. Yes, some see it as mysterious high tech but its just tech we are accustomed to seeing elsewhere like in free air on alternators with sealed bearings or that kinda gearing in high speed boxes in industrial equipment, so our traditional thinking regarding automotive lubes and troubleshooting is the problem. I deal routinely with people doing this exact thing pulling stunts like pouring in regularly the thickest 30w-50 they can find BTW removed by your friendly EPA Zddp, phosphates & another ionic molecule that bonds to metal and stands on end to protect it. Lets not forget and remind everyone the three last defense anti-metal contact additives being removed, plus a heavy 30-40% of non synthetic, convential Lucas extremly thick stabilizer into the oil and running 90+mph on 100F+ days pulling heavy trailer for very long trips with long hills and wonder why and whine when that production engine not engineered for that loading or way thick oil melts down and the rings are gone. I laughed at this guy who thinks he is my friend and told him what was happening but he did not listen to physics and lube engineering facts. So then he took out a home equity loan to have a land speed record racer build it up for about 5k $$ on to of the 2k $ he just spent to let a mechanic hack put cam gears in it and wasted it out immediately on a trip because he did not soak and pre-pump up the lifters then used above too thick lube driving too fast and completely omitting proper break in good practice. Oops almost forgot he could not understand why the oil filler / dipstick got blown out, duh you over pressurized it with oil tooooo thick . Oh and now all this pain & big $$ later he is suddenly and attentively asking for my oil recommendations and break in suggestions and listening to the racers / engine builders good instructions.
    Educate yourself so you do not get led on wild goose chases by people with no idea what to do because they are kinda shooting a shotgun in the dark. Shine the light of knowledge on this. Find someone who knows what is in it (CVT), willing to get it on a rack with wheels spinning and a mechanucs stethascope very carefully and patiently to isolate this, & or watch the youtube videos from the hybrid course instructor who does a few vids on complete teardown for both inverter & CVT and start listening closer & maybe have someone drive it while you listen from pass side and outside preferrable driving a quiet vehicle window down nearest suspect area or in a tunnel like bridge overpass acoustic reflectve area to amplify sounds will help. Walking fast beside it (safely), as a last resort.

    With a suspect wheel bearing first thing most do is a no load check with a jack which is never a good test that rarely finds this outside of completely wasted ones due to lack of weight on bearings. The most important clue is the noise osillations directly puroprtional to the wheel rotational speed / RPM? Does it get better or worse with brake application or turning wheels either slightly or harder, this will tell tales of where to & not look closer but just do not guess so much. Do more testing / checking to give you clues. Then if so eliminate to isolate either CV outboard, (if applicable) DOJ joint inboard, or outboard wheel/ hub, or inbd CV/ DOJ shaft trans bearing.

    My very expensive 40k $ troubleshooting courses & the intuitive skills borne in a master technician can be taught learned to a large degree but number one is find the center point in the system affected (unless something controls that system like gas not in it or electric like switch off or breaker off/ out) and work to eliminate toward each end from center and you will find it.

    Hope this helps someone somehow. God bless.

    Really we are so handicapped here trying to help cause we can not observe but I do thank those here trying hard even if its not for me.

    SM-G900T ?
     
    #12 specialtyneed, Oct 1, 2015
  13. greenman06

    greenman06 New Member

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    I just wanted to thank everyone who posted here. My 2006 Prius has had a similar sound growing for months. I tired to ignore (fearing the worst I guess so went into denial). Finally searched online and found this thread. Perfectly described symptoms, especially helpful to have the video and sound with it. By the time I got to dealer for service yesterday I told them my amateur diagnosis was wheel bearings in front passenger side wheel. (the tips on testing with turns right and left helped too). Turned out exactly right. All clear now. Of course it cost $787 for whole hub and bearing assembly with alignment on top but at least it wasn't the electric motor failing or transmission.
     
    #13 greenman06, Feb 9, 2016
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