Scared to buy a Prius...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mystery Squid @ Apr 22 2006, 03:24 PM) [snapback]243708[/snapback]</div>

I agree that it does react different than a normal car in snow, but I think you have to react different too. The very first time I had a significant issue this past winter, was going up a steep dirt road in Vermont just after freezing rain. Road was solid ice. I made it up half way and had to back down. (Boy, was that a thrill!). On my second attempt, I got a little running start and kept it floored. This makes a big difference and lets the car accelerate as it can - if you try to control it yourself, you'll fail, but the car did a good job at it and got me to the top.

I do have snow tires and I highly recommend them. This was the only situation I ever felt uneasy in and no other 2 wheel drive vehicle would likely have been any better. 4WD would have been the only saving grace here.

As others said, Prius is a great car. If you get one, I'm sure you won't regret it and everything I've heard and read about it says it is a safe car.

Good luck!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bea2006 @ Apr 22 2006, 06:12 AM) [snapback]243581[/snapback]</div>

I've had mine for 2 years - 30,000 miles. Here's the way I see it:

Almost always I get better than 50 mpg on the freeway (65 to 80 mph). My overall average mileage is about 48 mpg (I know it's supposed to be the other way around but that's the way it is, at least with my car). In the winter my mileage has gotten as low as 44 mpg. Note: The laws of physics say all hybrids must get poorer gas mileage in the winter. Batteries, all batteries, are less effective when cold. By the way, I have good friends who own a Honda Hybrid Civic. The best mileage they get is in the low 40s. Oh, one other point, I don't drive my Prius in any "appropriate" way. I don't 'hot-rod', but I do stay with traffic, and never, ever impede it. My friend with the Honda once drove my Prius during a 90 mile trip and averaged 55 mpg (he was impressed), but he drove in what some would call an "appropriate" manner. His driving style nearly drove me nuts.

Safety is VERY important to me. Before I bought my Prius I researched this. Here's what I learned:

. The Prius did VERY well in both front and side impact crash tests.

. I made sure to buy one with a package that included ALL safety features. It's said that side curtain air bags and stability control are the most important car safety improvements since the advent of seat belts. Does the Honda have these available? It sounds like the Honda dealer was making the case on the recently introduced whiplash issue. Quite possibly this is the only area of safety where the Honda Hybrid Civic beat out the Prius. By the way, search back through this forum .. Each time I read about someone involved in a serious accident, it turns out that everyone is amazed that the occupants fared so well.

I had an Audi 4000 Diesel. My average mileage on that was almost as good as I get on my Prius. What I least appreciated was (1) finding a gas station that carried diesel, and (2) My hands would always stink to high heaven after filling up the car (hard to get rid of that smell). Oh, by the way, have you checked out the price of diesel fuel? It's higher than the price of gasoline.

I don't want either a Corola or a VW Jetta. The Corola is common looking and the Jetta doesn't have a good maintenance reputation. By the way, my Prius has been trouble free since purchasing it in March of 2004.

If you get the Prius, I suspect you'll grow to love the 'lift back' door and the folding rear seats. You'll be amazed at how much you can put in this car (42" TV, Patio set complete with 4 chairs and an umbrella, etc.). Also, friends who used to ride with me in my previous Audi A4 always complained about rear seat leg room). They love riding in the back seat of this car .. Plenty of leg room.

I waited 3 months for my Prius. The wait was well worth it. I don't know a single Prius owner who wishes they had purchased the Hybrid Civic. But I will mention that my friends bought their Hybrid Civic just a few months before the 2004 Prius was announced. They never said it, but I could see in their eyes that had the 2004 Prius been available they'd have very definitely made a different decision.

Oh, one other point .. If I had it to do over again, I'd have had my Michelin Hydroedge tires installed when I purchased the car. They're much better in rain and snow. Like I said, safety is very important to me. I never felt real good about the OEM tires in foul weather. I had no problems with them, but still, I wanted tires that had a proven reputation for winter weather driving. I bought better tires simply for purposes of satisfying my own peace of mind. I mention this because I believe you said you live in Maine.

 

A word about hatchbacks in general. Twice the wife and I were shopping (80 miles from home) and found large items on sale that we unexpectedly decided to purchase. We were able to put a dishwasher and on another day a drop in stove in the back of the hatchback with the hatch closed. We could never have done this in a Civic and was a major factor in our decision to buy the Prius. My wife says it is her favorite car...it would be my favorite too, but I can't get it away from her.

 

3...."You would be a fool to go with a Prius since they did only marginal with the WHIPLASH test."

None of the replies directly addressed this issue. This is one kind of accident that cannot be prevented by having a car that is "nimble". If you are stopped at a light, you are a potential target to be rear ended no matter how fast or maneuverable your vehicle may be. "Side curtain airbags" and stability control are not really relevent in a straight rear ending. That is the reason why, as much as I love everything about the Prius - I haven't bought one. If you are concerned about whiplash injuries, there are a number of cars that offer dynamic headrests(front seats only). The best is probably Volvo WHIPS system followed by the Saab. There are others. You will see more and more car makers addressing the whiplash issue to meet new safety standards
.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bea2006 @ Apr 22 2006, 05:12 AM) [snapback]243581[/snapback]</div>

If the Prius is changed in 2008 or 09 and it gets the speculated 90-100 MPG, that still doesn't mean the value of a 2007 or older Prius - or any other hybrid or high MPG car - will go down in value because of the introduction of a new model - but it will put a cap on the maximum price you can expect to receive for your used car.

According to my crystal ball . . . By 2008, the cost of gasoline will be approaching five dollars per gallon.

In 2008, how many car models do you think will get anywhere near the current model Prii's mileage?

Now pretend it is 2008 and you need to buy a used car. Would you be willing to pay more for a used 2006 Prius which gets 50+ MPG, or would you pay less for some HEMI powered thing knowing that you are going to be bled dry trying to feed the beast? (now remember, you are the one worried about selling a Prius in 2008 )

The value of my 2005 Prius is what it does for me today, and, what I know it will do for me in the future. The value is not in what I could sell it for in 2008. It ain't for sale today, and it won't be in 2008 either.

 

7. We piled the kids into both cars. The Honda Hybrid is nice without the bump in the middle, but we felt less squished in the Prius (these will be short trips with all of us.


You've gotten lots of good and honest advice. I would only add that with a young family, you will find that a hatchback is far more functional than a sedan with fixed rear seats. When you have to lug around a drum set, or a load of sports equipment, or a couple guitars and amps, or a Sunday School car pool you will do far better with the Prius just because it's a hatchback.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(danoday @ Apr 22 2006, 10:07 AM) [snapback]243677[/snapback]</div>

VW reliability is so poor, I have no reason to think that their engines (even diesels) will last any longer than anyone else's. The rest of the car certainly doesn't have very good odds of holding up well.

In my book, buying a VW TDI for its better mileage for gallon of fuel over a Prius or HCH would be foolish given that the repair costs and hassle will totally negate that advantage [and probably make the Prius or HCH cheaper in the long run].

Anyone interested in a VW should look at the Consumer Reports April auto issue and at http://www.jdpower.com/news/releases/press....asp?ID=2005089 (even though I don't trust JD Power's that much).

 

I'll start with the misconception that the Prius is not a good highway car, mpg wise. No other car does better. Period. What IS true, though, is that the *difference* in mpg between the Prius and other hybrids, or the difference between the Prius and non-hybrids is not as large as you would see in city driving. The Prius advantage on the highway lessens as the speed increases. 75 mph in a Prius is around 45 mpg. Expect similar results in a Honda Civic hybrid.

A non-hybrid Civic or Corolla is probably good for close to 35 mpg at 75 mph.

I'd choose between the Civic, Corolla, Accord and Prius. Forget about VW -- they have rotten reliability, and are nasty polluters to boot.

The most important safety features you have to consider are VSC and side airbags. Decide how much you are willing to pay for them, and your choices will become clearer.

Good luck selling the gas guzzler.

One other thought -- Can you carpool that 180 mile trip ?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(automatic1stdown @ Apr 22 2006, 02:20 PM) [snapback]243696[/snapback]</div>

automatic1stdown,

It is the TRAC and not the VSC feature that hinders uphill climbing in slippery conditions, and I also recall hearing that Ford is using the Toyota technology, not Honda. I stand corrected on both points. Thanks for the clarification.

Dan

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(danoday @ Apr 23 2006, 04:42 PM) [snapback]244024[/snapback]</div>

I have followed this thread with interest, as I am thinking about buying an '06 Prius.

I live in Westchester County, New York, which means I will be driving in my share of snowy conditions. My current ride is an '03 Honda CR-V, with all-wheel drive and all-season tires with a serious tread bite (Goodyear Assurance TripleTreds, which are not made for the '06 Prius).

The posts by danoday and others regarding winter traction in the Prius ( I also did a search on "snow tires" and read some harrowing posts by other Prius owners in other threads about their experiences with their wheels locking up on snowy inclines) have given me serious cause for concern. I would be terrified, given the lack of skill of drivers in this area and the reckless speed at which these idiots drive, if my wheels were to lock up in snowy conditions when I wanted to accelerate.

Should this be a dealbreaker? Can using all-season tires similar to the Assurance TripleTreds (with deep treads) make the Prius effective on snowy inclines?

 

1. Recent articles and people have said that we would be better off to buy a "Corrolla" or "VW Jetta Diesal" or regular Civic which will get better highway miles than a Prius. "The Prius is better for in town driving and will not save you any money."
No new car will save you money. A good, recent-model Honda or Toyota will have a much lower cost per mile to drive because you've spent so much less up front.
2.The Prius will not give you the mileage in the winter.
Mileage will be significantly less in winter. But it will still be MUCH better than anything else other than a 2-seater Insight. The Prius takes a bigger mileage hit in winter than other cars because the engine does not shut off as much in winter, as it needs to keep the exhaust syystem warm. But it still beats other cars hands down. Also, your husband's long commute will give the car time for its HV battery to warm up, greatly improving mileage compared to someone who puts fewer miles on
3. Based on the resent safety test..."You would be a fool to go with a Prius since they did only marginal with the whiplash test. Get the Honda Hybrid which is top for safety in all categories." (Now that really pulls at a mom!) PLEASE ESPECIALLY ANSWER THIS POINT. IF IT REALLY IS NOT AS SAFE FOR THE KIDS THEN...
Do not obsess over one particular kind of acident. Consider the OVERALL safety. Be sure to get a package that includes VSC. I drove the Prius two winters in Fargo, and for driving on ice, VSC is a life-saver. The Honda does not have this. If you really want the safest car, I think the Volvo has the best safety reputation. But the Prius is an extremely safe car. Be sure to get one with ALL the air bags, all the way around.
4. The Prius is scheduled to be changed in 2008 or 09, so the value of your Prius will go down compared to the Honda Civic Hybrid which is new this year and will not probably change for another 4 years.
Maybe. But this is only a factor if you plan on selling your car in 2009 or soon after. If you will keep it 5 years, the model change in 2009 will not be a factor.
5. "You can't go wrong with a Honda"
Absolutely true. You can't go wrong with a Toyota either.
6. My husband and I realize that we have to learn to drive the Hybrids appropriately to get the mileage needed. This is a huge financial decision for us. Please be so honest with your answers.
To get the best mileage in ANY car you have to learn to drive correctly. But people who drive Suburbans don't talk about their mileage or compare notes. No matter how you drive, the Prius out-performs any other car except an Insight, assuming you drive the comparison car the same. Always drive conservatively, safely, and defensively.
7. We piled the kids into both cars. The Honda Hybrid is nice without the bump in the middle, but we felt less squished in the Prius (these will be short trips with all of us.
Yes. More space in the Prius, and MUCH more cargo room.
8. The Prius electronics pull on our emotions, but our priority is mileage. It seems the Honda Civic H is about the same as the Prius?
No. The Prius gets significantly better mileage. But as I commented above, you'll spend MUCH less over the lifetime of the car with a good used car, because your purchase price is so much less.
9. No wait on the Honda Civic Hybrid vs 3 month wait at least on the Prius.
True. Patience pays off.
10. Thank you for your help. #1 we need mileage/safety These fuel prices are devastating.
Sincerely, Bea
I disagree (as above): Number 1 you need safety. Number 2 you need overall economy. Mileage is only one part of that.

In my opinion, the Prius is the coolest car in the universe. Of course, if I didn't feel this way I'd probably been on Honda Chat instead of PriusChat.

 

I live in MN and I see a lot of Priuses. We bought one and had no problems with it this winter. Got snow tires for the winter and an engine block heater. If your kids are in the back, there shouldn't be much of a whiplash problem.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ralphh @ Apr 23 2006, 06:17 PM) [snapback]244046[/snapback]</div>

Whiplash testing was for the front seats only. I've never seen data for the back seats. In any case, the moving headrest that is purported to improve accident results is only in a small fraction of cars, and AFAIK, only in front seats. So protection of passengers in the back is as good (or bad) as any other car.

Regarding winter driving. A few people have reported problems going up slippery grades because of TRAC; the majority say that good snow tyres makes for a happy winter Prius. This last winter in Albuquerque (high desert, climate similar to Denver CO) was too mild and too dry to judge the car, but my intent is to switch to snow tyres for the 'black ice' months of the year. Seems like inexpensive security to me.

 

I won't tell you which one to get, but I have a similar commute.

My commute is 130 miles round trip. I drove home in our Prius on 2/15/06, today we flipped 7500 miles.. about 9 weeks.

Thus far, my real time, at the pump fuel mpg is 50.85mpg. My stats and tank fills are on my site.

http://d.spicher.home.comcast.net/prius/LifetimeStats.html

My commute is 11 miles of city type driving (stoplights every few miles or so mostly, some patches with lights every 1/4 mile). Tollway (3 or 4 lanes each way) for about 51 miles (3 chicagoland toll gates and construction along the way). I'd say I drive about 62 to 67 miles per hour on the tollway portion.

Then, about 3 miles of city driving off the end of the tollway to the office. 65 miles each way.

I get my best mpg on the tollway. I somehow can't do better on the streets and in town. I see a slight decline or have a hard time maintaining the 55.0 I see on the mfd after a couple days of commute when I am doing the in town stoplight - to - stoplight driving.

I'd be surprised to see you get this mpg with the civic on my route. I'd expect about 4 or 5 mpg less.

I have a friend out west that got a VW diesel automatic 2 weeks before I got my prius. They drive it in town mostly and are getting about 32mpg. I'm not sure that will get you to 50+ on the road. I doubt it.

I've never been rearended, so I can't tell you about the whiplash. I'm sure I'd prefer my prior diesel pickup if that ever happens to me.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(pjaymac @ Apr 23 2006, 03:52 PM) [snapback]244028[/snapback]</div>

I just purchased a set of 195/60-15 TripleTreds for my Prius. It's not the OEM 185/65-15 size, but it's extremely close. I think the circumference is within 1%.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(pjaymac @ Apr 23 2006, 03:52 PM) [snapback]244028[/snapback]</div>

As you have seen already, the Prius with the OEM Goodyear Integrity tires is poor in the snow. A set of good Blizzaks on a Prius would make it quite capable and should have no problem climbing snowy/icy hills.

The TripleTreds are all-season tires and will be marginal in the snow and ice. Although the TripleTreds have a special "winter" zone in the middle of the tire tread, that small strip is maybe 20% of the total surface area. You're MUCH better off getting dedicated snow tires mounted on steel rims for the Prius and even your CRV.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(automatic1stdown @ Apr 23 2006, 11:37 PM) [snapback]244134[/snapback]</div>

Thanks, automatic. When I said the TripleTreds are not available for the '06 Prius, I was going by Goodyear's Assurance website (http://www.goodyeartires.com/goodyeartireselector). It's good to know you can apparently buy them a little larger than the original size.

I live in an apartment building, so it's not possible for me to keep a set of snow tires lying around for nine months of the year, and I wouldn't want to have to pay a garage mechanic twice a year to mount and dismount them even if I did have them lying around. That's why the TripleTreds are great in my view; I've had them on for the past two winters and, possibly in combination with the CR-V's AWD, have had no problems in the snow.

Thanks, will keep the Blizzaks in mind too, but I'm guessing they are dedicated snow tires and not all-season tires.

 

This word from Maine...

If you can actually drive on snow and ice, with a good set of winter rated tires you'll think you're driving a 4wd with the Prius. By her own admission my wife can't drive on snow and ice and she thinks the Prius is great. I've driven it on snow (wet, dry, makes little difference), ice, rain, mud, gravel, and it handles great. Now the caveat, one must know how to control the throttle and have tires or chains up to the task. We have Dunlop Graspic DS2s on ours for the winter. If one lacks either ability or scrimps on the tires one is SOL, and naturally every driver has ability if you ask them. We'll hear their whining here next winter, yet again.

Those folks who can't drive on snow and ice simply can't. Traction control will hinder them and they'll whine. In an "ordinary" car it'll allow them to endanger everyone else with their out of traction antics. The Prius reigns them into control (hence the whining). The more out of control their throttle foot the less far they'll be allowed to travel. A much safer world. Traction control anchors them in place and that's a good thing.

The Prius is a great car on crappy road surfaces. No car is worth a hoot if the driver is lacking.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bea2006 @ Apr 22 2006, 08:12 AM) [snapback]243581[/snapback]</div>

 

I think the Prius is very safe. I drive my kids in it everywhere (13 and 9). I think the stability control (Toyota calls it ESC) is a great feature to look for. As for mileage, I typically get 50 MPG on the highway at 65-70 MPH and if I slow down to 60 I can get 55 in the summer. Around town you can easily get 57-60 mpg if you use the pulse and glide technique under 40 mph. Mileage does go down in the winter, mostly for short trips around town, the highway mileage is not affected as much by cold weather. Over 44000 miles I have averaged 51 mpg, in the winter mileage goes down as low as 45 MPG in january. I live in central Maine which is almost as cold as Minnesota. I would get the Prius, but the Civic Hybrid is a great car as well. Also check with http://www.greenhybrid.com/ and http://www.cleanmpg.com/ to get some perspectives from other hybrid owners. There is a women named Laurie from Minnesota who owns a Civic Hybrid who could tell you how her civic does in Minnesota.

Keep in mind that all cars get worse mileage in the winter, for my Prius it is around a 20 % difference which amounts to a 10 mpg decrease during the coldest winter months, in my Camry this same 20 % would bring my mileage down only 5 mpg because the mileage is only about 25 mpg. Remember winter is only 3 months, even though it may feel like 6 in Minnesota .

Dennis

 

Addressing the 'learning curve' issue:

I've had my Prius for 2 months and 6 days, and I've put about 1500 miles on it, 3 full tanks of gas and half way throught hte fourth tank.

Most of my driving is 5 miles each way for my commute, and maybe half a dozen 10-12 mile trips to see friends/go to the train station, and a single trip of 25 miles each way.

My first tank, my MFD was showing in the low 40's, starting out in the high 30's on my first few trips, so I thought something was wrong and asked a question on Prius Chat. People responded that the short trips take a big bite out of the MPG because of the first 5 - 10 minutes or so for 'engine warmup'. Since then, Ive noticed this to be true - the 'consumption' screen on my MFD shows maybe 25 - 35 MPG the first 5 minutes, the second shows 35-50 (depending on how stop'n'go the traffic is), and the rest of the 'bars' are almost always above 50.

People also replied that there's a 'learning curve' for the Prius. Some people referred me to threads discussing the 'pulse and glide' method that requires monitoring the 'energy' screen on the MFD to 'learn' it. I'd been advised by others earlier that as a new driver, I should be careful not to be distracted by the MFD display, and maybe even turn it off. So I mostly have it show me the 'consumption' screen. Without having to 'concetrate' on it, I've learned to notice times when my foot is pressing too much on the accellerator in times where slowing down a mile or two won't impede traffic, especially when I can see a line of cars at the stoplight ahead of me.

Results: my first tank was around 43 MPG, 2nd around 48, and third around 49. My current tank is still showing over 50 on the MFD (this is the one with the 'long haul' 25 mile trip <g>), but I expect my 'calculated mileage' at the end of the tank will probably be just a shade under 50. (NJ doesn't have 'self serve' gas stations, and I suspect the attendant didn't 'push' to get my tank filled at the last fill up - my calculated MPG was a shade HIGHER than the MFD, and I'm told it's usually lower.)

Bottom line: First tank was about 30-40 short trips, MPG average on the MFD went up from around 39 to about 45 at the end; 'cacluted' MPG was 43 for the whole tank. Based on MFD display, there was 'learning' during that first 3 weeks. 2nd tank was calculated 48 MPG - more 'learning' taking place; 3rd tank and expectation of 4th tank - around the same as the 2nd tank - learning had been accomplished.

At some point in the future, I may decide to see if I can start monitoring the different energy arrows on the energy display to verify what I think I know about pulse'n'glide (people said when you 'learned' it, you could 'feel' it and it became second nature). But I probably won't do that on my current short commute - too many stop lights. Might try it on my next trip to visit the grandkids 250 miles away, on the interstates and on the 10-15 mile 'local road' trip to their house, with a couple of alternative routes. But I'll do this out of curiosity, not out of necessity. I think I've learned spring/summer Prius driving adequately, and I'll find out what I need to do to adapt to winter driving in my area starting in about 6 months.