Religion

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(zapranoth @ Apr 18 2006, 11:34 PM) [snapback]241975[/snapback]</div>

I only used the Mormons as an example of "fundamentalist" because that faith was so obviously and publicly founded on polygamy (as well as many other currently distasteful ideals) which is now "denounced" by the mainstream folks. Why bother following a religion when you swerve way away from the fundamentals of it? How do you denounce the founding ideals of your religion? Fundamentalist thinking is, and should be found in any religion by definition. It is believing the fundamentals of the religion.

Also commonly found in commercial religions (yes, I said commercial vs the tired "organized") - as you've nicely pointed out here - folks who believe in any other religion are "hideously perverse." Everybody else's religion is false. God has spoken to them all, so apparently MOST people aren't telling the truth!

 

Former Catholic, curious of Buddhism in the past, now embracing all good-hearted people from all faiths who spread love and compassion paired with wisdom and tolerance, striving for benefit of all mankind not a given or chosen 'kin', essentially deeply spiritual and in love with Earth and it's diversity.

Peace

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Wildkow @ Apr 19 2006, 04:47 AM) [snapback]242004[/snapback]</div>

Not so fast. Truth is a slippery notion.

Most of us would think someone a fool who denies that the sun rises every morning, but unless you were “tuned in†to the eccentricities of language, we would HAVE to deny that the sun “rises†every morning, for the “truth†is that the sun is stationary and the earth’s spin only creates the illusion that the sun “rises.†Of course, the sun ISN’T stationary, it’s spinning and traversing the galaxy in a wide orbit of its own, so in that sense one could say that is IS “rising†along the circumference of its orbit, but it doesn’t do this “rising†only in the morning but continuously at all hours, even after all the bars have closed. So what’s the “truth?†In common vernacular morning sunrise IS the truth, but only because the term “sunrise†was coined before the “truth†was found out and after the “truth†was found out most attempts to criminalize the use of the word “sunrise†(instead of the more correct “rotational penumbral shiftâ€) found little popular support, so “sunrise†is still with us as a “true†description of dawn. But it’s still not true.

Didja follow?

And all that confusion concerns a matter most of us would never think to question the truth of. Imagine the clash of minds over matters that aren’t so cut and dried, like will it rain today or not?

Tell a farmer whose fields desperately need water, “Rain would be good today†and he’ll say “That’s the truth!â€

Tell his son the baseball fan desperate to play the last game of the series, “Rain would be bad today†and he’ll say “That’s the truth!â€

Which one of these two fellows is lying? If truth is an absolute they can’t both be right as rain about the rain.

The big problem with truth is that its “truth†is too often in the eye of the beholder. Absolute truth can’t be “truthfully†assessed without knowing a picture wider than most of us can see. We know a bigger picture today than we did yesterday, so most of today’s “truths†make falsehoods of yesterday’s “truths.†So is the “truth†we know today the final absolute “truth?†Or is there a chance we’ll enlarge our frame of knowledge tomorrow wider than it is today, and tomorrow’s “truths†will make falsehoods of today’s “truths†in the same relentless, eternal cycle of learning that has defined humanity’s history across the ten thousand years we’ve survived so far without (yet) killing ourselves off in the name of some transient “truth?â€

Truth is a slippery notion. And that’s the truth!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(marjflowers @ Apr 18 2006, 12:45 PM) [snapback]241641[/snapback]</div>

I think maybe what you are seeing is that "normal" mainstream christians don't care about these arguments. They have their beliefs, and are satisfied to let other people have their own beliefs, and so don't enter into these sorts of quarrels.

There is a problem here over the definition of "fundamentalism." The real fundamentals of christianity, as taught by Jesus, are Love of everyone (friend, neighbor, and enemy), passivity in the face of violence (not at all the same as nonviolent resistance, which I, an athiest, practice), and voluntary poverty. The latter two follow necessarily from the first, so that unconditional, pure love may be said to be the real fundamental principal.

However, "fundamentalism" is a term which has come to be applied to certain sects, of whatever religion, characterized by intolerance for the beliefs of others and unwillingness to accept material evidence of how the world functions (physics, biology, geology, etc.)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dsunman @ Apr 19 2006, 12:42 PM) [snapback]242232[/snapback]</div>

Well put. When we were in India, we saw more examples of day-to-day spirituality practiced in real life than I have in a lifetime of living here. Not that people are bad here at all. It's just that there seemed to be much more of a life practice in India and less lip service. I don't subscribe to the Hindi point of view, but at the core, we have similar values.

PS: you have the best avatar bar none. I crack up each time I see it.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hybridTHEvibe @ Apr 18 2006, 08:40 PM) [snapback]241817[/snapback]</div>

Sorry, the ONLY written record of what Jesus said is clear...no one goes to the father but through me. Oh, you are right, he LOVES everyone, but that only translates into eternal life if you LOVE him back. And you manifest that love by believing in him. Be real, you CANNOT love someone you do not believe in.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rancid13 @ Apr 19 2006, 02:35 PM) [snapback]242188[/snapback]</div>

I believe that once you are "saved" and "born again", you cannot lose your salvation because you are "sealed" until redemption.

So, I do not have to pray for you, you will be with me in eternity!!!!!!!!!!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Apr 19 2006, 08:55 PM) [snapback]242385[/snapback]</div>

I do not see where 'voluntary poverty" is required of you by jesus' teachings. Please advise!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Schmika @ Apr 19 2006, 09:53 PM) [snapback]242419[/snapback]</div>

And that's exactly the point, I believe in him and love him but no organized religion is going to change what's in my heart. I do not need to belong to some authoritarian club to believe in him.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Schmika @ Apr 19 2006, 09:59 PM) [snapback]242419[/snapback]</div>

So even if you never cared and believed in your "salvation", never cared for being "born again" as long as you were forced and did what others told you to do without you actually in your heart wanting and caring for it, you are still "sealed" until redemption?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hybridTHEvibe @ Apr 19 2006, 10:18 PM) [snapback]242428[/snapback]</div>

if you did not truly believe when you were "saved"...then it did not happen. You cannot be FORCED to be saved or born again.

Hybridvibe...you are SOOOOOO close. You do NOT have to belong to any church, but you MUST accept Jesus as your personal saviour to be saved.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Schmika @ Apr 19 2006, 10:21 PM) [snapback]242434[/snapback]</div>

So why is it that Rancid13 stated that she was forced to it and you still insist that she is sealed until redemption?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Schmika @ Apr 19 2006, 10:21 PM) [snapback]242434[/snapback]</div>

But how can you accept Jesus as your personal saviour as so many things you do are so against his teachings?
So many of those who scream and claim that they have been saved are the biggest hypocrites and spread hatered and intolerance towards other human beings who have the same right to exist and believe in whatever they want to believe as you do. Why do you need to judge people based on their beliefs? If they are really wrong they will be judged by God and you are not God. Perhaps you are wrong and God will punish you. Can you honestly say that you know?

 

I would not participate in organized religion because so many teach intolerance.

If God is not a tolerant being than I guess I would rather be an atheist but for the most part I believe that there is a bigger picture, whether energy or soul, there is something more than what we see in front of us.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Schmika @ Apr 19 2006, 10:21 PM) [snapback]242434[/snapback]</div>

Are you playing God, Schmika? It's not for you to say/determine/tell me/judge me whether I am close or not. It's between me and God and nobody else. When my time comes I will find out directly from God whether I've been SOOOOOOOO close all this time.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Schmika @ Apr 19 2006, 10:21 PM) [snapback]242434[/snapback]</div>

Schmika,

Do you care to pick up and answer my question to you. POST # 187

You slandered me by putting words in mouth that I didn't say. POST # 182

in thread/topic

"Evolution Vs Creation Vs Intelligent Design"

That would be kind of you and up to par with civility

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ Apr 19 2006, 12:11 PM) [snapback]242213[/snapback]</div>

Mormons believe in continuing revelation through their leaders (the top guy is considered a prophet). They can and do receive new direction on how to structure their faith. That belief is stronger than any of the cultural beliefs.

I think polygamy was a natural outgrowth of an isolated and persecuted group of people who had many more female members than male, especially when viewed against the backdrop of a culture where an unmarried woman was scorned or pitied.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Salsawonder @ Apr 19 2006, 10:37 PM) [snapback]242447[/snapback]</div>

This is EXACTLY how I feel.

And the organized religious games are so far out there from the "big picture". The need to belong to something and be herded is too cult-like for me.

 

All bow to the flying spagetti monster and feel his wrath. Pastafarianism is the only TRUE religion.

http://www.venganza.org/

 

I seem to recall in Acts that the first Christians lived as communistically.
So how many true Fundamentalist Communists do we have here? B/C if you are not Communist then you are not a Christian.

Say that was my 100th post. Do I get anything?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Begreen @ Apr 19 2006, 09:43 PM) [snapback]242413[/snapback]</div>

I sincerely share your observations, I had same opportunities to venture into places where spirituality way over-surpasses our daily routine, places so arid and desolate with most imaginable dilapidation there is, slams of worst source, where people choke on their own mucus with excruciating pains (no sedation) dying on the ground supported only with consolation and offered warm hand. Those experiences are extremely humbling, once juxtaposed with a modernity and well off cultures, such experiences stand overpoweringly resonated. Deeply altering pathos.

 

Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man -- living in the sky -- who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!

But He loves you.

He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and they always need a little more. Now, you talk about a good bullshit story. Holy Shit!

George Carlin, May 29, 1997

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tbstout2 @ Apr 20 2006, 06:38 PM) [snapback]242812[/snapback]</div>

When Carlin was good, he was vey good. When he was bad, he was better!

Christianity (ala Shakespeare): The evil that men do lives after them (the progeny continues to pay), the good is oft enterred with their bones.

So, man is eternally guilty, with no way out. Oops..... there's the carrot and stick routine. Believe, sinner and be saved or suffer eternal (as in a long, long time), unimaginable torture (worse than Gitmo even).

BTW - I tend to be non-theistic. As in not following the logic(?) of living in the natural world whilst taking advice (commands) from a supernatural "intelligent designer" who has revealed himself (itself?) to natural beings. I ask myself "how can a supernatural being (consciousness absent attributes) communicate with a natural being?" If it could communicate, how could the natural being demonstrate that such a communication had occurred. That is, what factual, demonstrable evidence could be provided? The answer of course is - no evidence has ever been provided of the existence of a supernatural being (i.e., that which is above and beyond nature). My answer then is "the supernatural being can't exist such that any man could know of it". The idea of the supernatural is an assault on everything that man knows about reality. 'The advocacy of consciousness w/o existence' (per Ayn Rand)!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dsunman @ Apr 19 2006, 11:16 PM) [snapback]242460[/snapback]</div>

Let me go find it......I've never cross referenced posts before.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dsunman @ Apr 19 2006, 11:16 PM) [snapback]242460[/snapback]</div>

GOOD GRIEF!!!!! I covered that quite clearly (in my mind) with the posts surrounding that. I clarified that you IMPLIED. I READ it that way. I am ALLOWED to have any interpretation I want. Slander my A##! Just because you don't like an answer doesn't mean I didn't answer. Between you and the vibe...you just want to BROWBEAT specific answers out of various posters. Too BAD! I stand by my interpretation until YOU clarify better.

And don't talk about civility until YOU learn what it means.