Big Battery Go Blooey? Advice? References?

Upon reflection, I understand Paul's point of view and it has a lot of merit today. But that was not the case in 2009.

My battery was OK but I upgraded anyway because I trusted the techniques Dorman (formerly ReInVolt) used to screen the modules. I really wanted the more modern modules and was willing to pay for it. But that was six years ago.

I studied and drive our 2003 Prius to be battery (and fuel) easy. So I'm not the ordinary rabbit. Still, I don't see our 2003 getting another traction battery under my ownership . . . new wine, old wineskin.

Bob Wilson

 

Sorry to hear of your situation.

You will still likely have to replace the battery pack regardless of the diagnosis.

Minimum to get out of the problem will likely be $1000, but that will not be a reliable fix.

You friendly local neighborhood garage could do a replacement.
More likely near $2,000. (part +labor)

New will be more near $3,000.

Feel free to call if you want to discuss options.

 

I'm sorry you've concluded that after buying the car, but just to be clear, Bob's post establishes that you're the people who shouldn't buy a first-generation (twelve to fourteen year old) Prius.

It's not so much the ongoing cost of maintaining a Prius—which is low, really, really low, compared to other stuff on the road over time. There's a reason Prii lead the total cost of ownership rankings in CR in every category where Prii appear, and fuel-economy alone doesn't explain the whole difference. They are, in the aggregate, very reliable, long-lasting, low-maintenance-expense cars.

It's just that the low maintenance expense can come in concentrated blobs instead of dribbling out over less expensive repairs year in and year out. And when you buy one that's a dozen years old, there's a risk that one of those blobs comes up sooner than you hoped it would.

If you were breaking the piggy bank to buy it, probably you'd have been better advised to look for a later model, maybe one with a year or two left on the hybrid warranty. Then in those first, more protected years, you'll easily save enough to build the piggy bank back up such that later on, if you hit a non-covered big maintenance expense, you can take it in stride (and see that, amortized over your years of ownership, it's still cheap).

It's just a lot harder to hold on to that perspective when the expense comes up so soon after purchase, I know....

-Chap

 

Hmm ... I guess I'm more of an advocate of a third way that lies between "guess and repair blind" and "truck to dealer for all diagnostics" and the third way is to have a scan tool on hand (mini VCI is cheap) with which you can obtain not only the missing subcodes but also operating data from the battery (module block voltages, etc.). A world of possibilities will open when you can get some data, post on priuschat, and have somebody say "hmm, it might also be helpful to know this" and you can walk back to the car and obtain that info too, without having to truck back to a dealer yet again.

That said, the P3006 clearly implicates an imbalance in the battery module states of charge, and the P3000 could be telling you one of four different things, but they are all related to the battery or battery ECU. If you wanted to call that enough information and just buy a battery and swap it in, you wouldn't be crazy, and it would probably work. The risks would be that (a) that wasn't the whole problem, so it's not all fixed, or (b) that fixes it, but an easier/cheaper approach also would have. Both risks are probably slight, and (b) doesn't matter if you're cool with swapping the whole battery.

You should still have a scantool. You (or your mechanic) can just buy a battery, mechanically bolt it in and connect the cables, turn the key and see what happens, and what happens will be one of two things: (a) all starts up and works flawlessly, or (b) it doesn't. That happens; perfection isn't always hit on the first try.

If (b), relations between you, the mechanic, and the battery vendor may become strained if you don't have the easy way to pull up the diagnostic information needed to identify what's not yet right.

If you think you might ditch the car, you may have no use for a scantool. If you think you might keep the car, or trade it on a newer Prius, investing in a scantool is easily justified; this will not be the last time you'll use it. Even if you decide on some other Toyota model, as Techstream covers them too.

-Chap

 

My write-up was also to lay out a 'road map'. The skills needed to maintain and repair a Prius are not that hard.

It helps if you have someone with mechanical skills to mentor BUT you are in one of the two best Gen 1 user forums on the net. The Yahoo group, 'Prius Technical Stuff' is the other. Both are sustained by skilled people who within limits, are willing to help newbies get their cars back on the road.

Another option is to see if there are local, adult education classes on automotive repair. They won't have a lot of Prius expertise but you'll get a chance to deal with tools and understand the technology. But I also wrote it to make sure the reader would know the options.

Bob Wilson

 

Hi - Roy from Canada here - I have 2001 cars that came up with the 2 codes you have. I have the minivic and observed the car at the time it was giving the codes. Try this - disconnect the low voltage battery by removing the negative terminal and replace it in a few seconds. This will clear the codes and allow the car to run normal. Let the car completely charge the high voltage battery before driving it again (look at the green battery indicator and wait till it shows full. Drive the car gently - no pedal to the floor moves may allow you to get around town without codes. When your battery got down to the 1/4 level it indicated the battery voltage was low at that time - any acceleration will cause weak modules to have different voltages thus the code 3006( the 3000 code will always come up with the 3006). If the codes do not come back unless the hv battery is low it indicates at least one module of the 38 in the battery is weaker then the others under load - if you get the minivic you will be able to see the battery pair voltages and freeze frame will let you see the module pair that is weak - a cheap fix is to replace the module that is weak in that pair. I have done that and got another 10000 km before another weak module occurred.

The advice you have been given by others is very valid and a reconditioned hv battery with Gen 2 or 3 modules is probably the best (economical) way to go. The gen 2 or 3 modules are more powerful then the gen 1 modules and when placed in the Gen 1 battery make it almost as strong as when new. Do not get a rebuilt with gen 1 used modules. Do not mix Gen 1 and Gen 2 modules - if only replacing one module buy a good Gen 1

The Gen 2 and 3 prius car hv batteries only have 28 modules but their modules are stronger then the Gen 1. Your battery with good Gen 2 or 3 modules will be stronger then the 2004 and up battery packs.

Hope this helps

Roy

 

"VCI", I think, stands for "vehicle communication interface". It is a thing to go between your computer (USB port, generally) and the diagnostic connector on the car (a big D-shaped affair located on the plastic panel above your left knee, and defined by Society of Automotive Engineers standard J1962).

It can't be just a dumb cable, because it has to talk USB out one end, and the various vehicle diagnostic protocols out the other. There are various gadgets around that do this, and they all have to speak the same standard protocols to the car, but originally how the computer software talked to them wasn't standardized, so they won't all be compatible with the Toyota Techstream software.

Finally there was a standard developed for how a vehicle communication interface should talk to the computer software. That standard is SAE J2534, and that's what Techstream expects, so any vehicle communication interface that supports J2534 should work with Techstream. The one that Toyota actually tests and endorses is called Mongoose and sold by Drew Technologies, but it is a few hundred dollars. There's another J2534 device called OpenPort, it's a couple hundred. But most people around here are buying somewhat sketchy offshore knockoffs found online at around $25 under the name "Mini VCI", and reporting them to work fine.

As for the Techstream software itself, Toyota intends it to be downloaded from them and used in conjunction with a techinfo.toyota.com subscription (pro level, 2 days cost $55), and it stops working when the subscription lapses.

It seems that a lot of these offshore "mini VCI" products come with a copy of (some version of) Techstream, which has been, ahem, enhanced to skip the subscription check. This presents an ethical conundrum each person approaches in his or her own way. Undoubtedly it's just plain more convenient than something you have to keep signing into techinfo and re-registering when you want to use it, and I'm sure a lot of us would love to see Toyota just come up with some way of offering legitimate use of the software on less irritating terms.

People who run the 'enhanced' version that came with their Mini VCI often run it on a cheap laptop they will never ever use for anything they care about, certainly not banking, on the theory that the same offshore operation distributing 'enhanced' Toyota software might not stick at 'enhancing' your laptop either.

The Techstream software requires MS Windows. (This is actually a consequence of the J2534 standard, which defines the communication interface in strictly Windows terms instead of platform-neutral ones. If something doesn't require Windows, it doesn't meet the standard. Microsoft's regulatory capture department surely broke out the champagne when they got that snuck through.)

You can probably set up a Windows environment on your Mac and be able to run the stuff. I haven't done it, so others here may have better detailed advice. If the windows environment offers enough isolation from the host Mac, that may allay most concerns about possible malware coming with the offshore Techstream.

-Chap

 

Yes I understand what you are saying that you cannot get the car to charge the battery when idling. I usually put the airconditioning on max and that will make the car keep running and charging the hv battery. You may be causing the hv battery to get low if you leave the trunk lid up for an extended period of time - or the inside lights may be left on. The hv battery charges the low voltage so if you are using the low voltage battery power you are draining the high voltage battery even while in park with the key out of the ingnition. If you have a bad or weak low voltage battery.it can drain the hv battery, since you have a new 12 volt battery this should not happen unless you leave the trunk up or the inside lights on.

Your car sounds like the charging system is OK if you drive down the road and you see the hv battrsionery is charging.

Re the minivic - I use an old computer with windows xp 32 bit installed and use it just for the car. I have the chinese knockoff and it works well. They are selling some minivic that are 32 and 64 bit but I understand they probably will not work with your car. If you buy from overseas it may take up to a month to get it - buy in the USA and it may be only a few days. The $18 to $35 cables and software will do the job on your car if used with windows xp 32 bit.
Roy

 

You'll need Virtual PC with windows XP. This is what I use.

Bob Wilson

 

Here is a good article I used and copied into word to help me with my minivic purchase - I cannot find the post to direct you to it directly - it came from this site. Here is the procedure he recommends ......


"In the beginning, getting a personal working version of Techstream up and running was a tricky trial and error process. With more experience, some of the difficulties have been worked out. Fortunately for those just joining the group, it's easier now. But through the research process, you might not realize this. Here is the most basic start to finish setup process to save time and redundant Q&A exchanges.

_____First_____

Decide if you're installing this software on a 32 bit or 64 bit system. Some of the cables only have 32 bit drivers available, but tweaking the files to install them on 64 bit systems is possible if your abilities allow it. Depending on your confidence level and computer knowledge, your choice may already be made.


To find out if your computer is running a 32-bit or 64-bit version of Windows in Windows 7 or Windows Vista, do the following:

Open System by clicking the Start button Picture of the Start button, right-clicking Computer, and then clicking Properties.

Under System, you can view the system type.

If your computer is running Windows XP, do the following:

Click Start.

Right-click My Computer, and then click Properties.

If you don't see "x64 Edition" listed, then you're running the 32-bit version of Windows XP.

If "x64 Edition" is listed under System, you're running the 64-bit version of Windows XP.

For the easier setup, go with a 32 bit windows system, a 64 bit system that you can run a 32 bit virtual machine on, or get one of the cables that have 64 bit drivers available. The simplest gig would be to find an old 32 bit XP laptop, or fork over another week's allowance for a Mongoose MFC so you can use Techstream on a 64 bit laptop easily. The descriptions for the cables and the available drivers for each is below. This decision will dictate which cable is best for you.

_____Second_____

Get yourself a cable. Getting Techstream won't do you any good without something to connect to a car. The cable you choose will set the stage for what extra work will be necessary to get the Techstream software functional.

Drew Technologies Mongoose Pro MFC - Most expensive, but most likely highest quality and best supported of all aftermarket cable options. It will be any cable looking like this that you can find by searching for Mongoose Toyota Techstream etc on eBay and Amazon. 32 and 64 bit driver downloads are available on the manufacturer's website as well as in my link later in this post making for easy setup on any computer.
http://i.imgur.com/AjAeb5C.jpg

Drew Technologies Mongoose MFC (not Mongoose Pro) - Originally used by dealerships for Techstream Lite, they range in price from $50ish to about as much as about $400-500 depending on who is selling it and how ignorant they are about the item they have. Under $100 is an awesome price for any original Mongoose MFC though. They're much more difficult to track down online because there aren't as many of them out there and they have been discontinued for a while. 32 and 64 bit driver downloads are still available on the manufacturer's website as well as in my link later in this post making for easy setup on any computer.
http://i.imgur.com/jQWGQkx.jpg

Chinese MVCI - Most commonly used in these forums. These cables all look mostly the same although the font on the sticker seems to switch between normal and italic depending on where it's made, but they all usually say the same stuff on the label (Mini-VCI J2534 Standard OBDII Interface). Tons of these from all over the place (mostly China/Hong Kong) can be found on eBay and Amazon by just searching for Techstream. The available driver for these cables requires 32 bit system only. To tweak the files for 64 bit installation, refer to this thread post: http://www.toyota-4runner.org/genera...-8-64-bit.html
If this is within your abilities, this is the most affordable cable and can be used on 32 bit and 64 bit systems.
http://i.imgur.com/dOf99Yw.jpg

XHorse MVCI - More affordable than the Mongoose products. The Chinese MVCI cable is a clone of the guts of this XHorse cable which is why their cables come with a disc with XHorse drivers.
http://i.imgur.com/RVBmDyz.jpg

All of these cables have been used by experienced DIY Techstream users and information for setting them up is readily available throughout this thread as well as in the instructions below.

_____Third_____

Now you need the software. Techstream software can be found all over the place, and there are many versions floating around in the various Techstream threads in different forums. The version updates are simply bug fixes and new model support. With bug fixes and version updates, new bugs arrive, so the biggest benefit to the newer versions is simply model support. The current latest version supports all models through 2014.

Here (hopefully) is a consolidated source for the software as well as simple setup instructions and common cable drivers:

Dropbox - Techstream

If this link doesn't work, the availability of Techstream software is still pretty good. The sources for downloading it change, drop, respawn elsewhere and so on and so forth. You no longer need the patch files, TISKEY files or anything else to activate the software. Just follow the instructions below. Digging through the forum threads for links to download is the best start for the software if you can't get it here.

_____Fourth_____

Put it all together. This is information from the dropbox file available above but included here as a clean walk through.

Setup Instructions for 32 bit MVCI, 32 bit XHORSE, and 32 or 64 bit Mongoose
Please make sure your windows system is 32bit(Windows xp or 7) or that you have a Mongoose cable in which case you'll have the 32 or 64 bit driver for your cable as needed and these instructions will work fine, or refer here: http://www.toyota-4runner.org/genera...-8-64-bit.html for 64 bit MVCI/XHORSE cable installation instructions.

step1. install "TIS_Techstream_Setup.exe"


step2. After the installation, don't run the Techstream software.

2.1 Install the cable driver for whichever cable you're using such as MVCI (xhorse) driver or Mongoose cable driver.
2.2 If you ran the MVCI driver, this step will probably not be necessary, but other cable drivers may require you to change Techstream Function value. Now is the time to check the function setting by following these instructions:

To activate any version of techstream, install whichever techstream .exe you choose, then open My Computer, C: Program files\Toyota Diagnostics \Techstream\Env

open IT3System.ini file and scroll down to

AVAILABLE FUNCTION SETTING

Switch TISFunction=1 to TISFunction=0

Click File, and Save.


step3. Now run the Techstream software. Again in this case, the MVCI driver may bypass this, or if you opened Techstream before installing those drivers, these fields may show up. If they do:
3.1 Select any region.
3.2 Select the language you want,
3.3 Put anything you want in the registration fields then OK.

step4. Interface Select
4.1 Click the [Setup] menu, then click the [VIM Select], then select the cable you're using in the drop down list of "Interface Setup", then Click [OK]

_____Fifth_____

Techstream? What is it good for?

This software is used by the dealers to communicate directly with the on-board computers in all 1996-present Toyota, Scion, and Lexus models.

Start by connecting to the vehicle. Turn your ignition key ON and click the Connect to Vehicle button at the left. Various fields may be required at the first connection prompt. TMMK product (Toyota Motor Manufacturing Kentucky) can be found on the inside of the door jamb if this applies. VSC or w/o VSC, Smark Key or w/o Smart Key, and Laser cruise or w/o Laser Cruise are some of the most common options asked for in this first menu. For newer models, the majority of these fields auto-populate, but for some older models, you may need to manually select all information for the vehicle you're connecting to.

Once connected, you'll see a window displaying all of the ECUs your vehicle has. Most didn't realize their car had this many computers. All of these ECUs are expensive, so now you know exactly which parts some of those monthly car payments are paying for. The legend describes the status of each ECU. Yellow for all unknown ECU status, White means communication with ECU is normal, White with asterisk means the software either isn't connecting properly to this particular ECU, or your car doesn't have this ECU but it was included in the list like many generic ECUs are.

From the start, they will all show up yellow because you haven't actually connected specifically to any of them yet. Running a health check (blue button near the left edge) will actually force the software to dig through each ECU one by one to check for stored information such as diagnostic trouble codes. You will probably wait a minute or two for this depending on how many ECUs your vehicle has. Having the vehicle running usually makes the health check more complete. The health check report will display a new window with the ECUs found and give you any Diagnostic Trouble Codes stored in each one. You can now click System Select near the top left tab to go back to the display of all ECUs and their status.

Each ECU controls a particular part of the car whether it be the engine, the anti theft, or the tire pressure monitor system TPMS. Double clicking any ECU or clicking once and clicking the green arrow at the lower right will take you to the list of DTCs for that ECU. Hopefully you'll have none. Pending or Current codes are current problems. Pending means it has identified a problem, but the system may be set up to wait until it sees it again to confirm it is a problem that you should be made aware of by storing it as Current and turning the Check Engine Light or Message Indicator Light MIL on.

You can also enter most ECUs and check the Utility button to the left of the screen. You may find individual customization options within each that you wish to change. If you aren't sure what it is, it's best to leave it alone.

Techstream is capable of far far more than these simple things, but for first time use, those simple tasks will at least get you more familiar with the software and how to navigate it."

I am trying to find the original post that this information came from - the author deserves a lot of credit for the detail he has provided. If I find it I will direct you to that post as there were other people in that post that gave good information.

This is the best information I could find and hope it helps.

Roy

 

You can use BootCamp that comes free with OS X, if you wish. No Need to purchase VM software if this is going to be the only use you have for it.

We have another member that uses BootCamp on his MacBook with no issues.