TDI or Prius??

Nate, thanks for the well reasoned and articulated post.

My only disagreement -- more with biodiesel in general -- is the blanket conviction that it is carbon neutral. It is just not that simple.

Let me start with your situation. You took biowaste and burned it, adding the carbon to the air. If you had not used it, it would have gone into landfill, and part of it would have been metabolized by microorganisms into gas and been released into the environment, part would have remained in the soil in non-gaseous form. The difference is your carbon savings.

Now lets switch over to people who buy biodiesel, made from crops. Different crops give varying amounts of biodiesel, and require varying amounts of fertilizer and farming work aka energy to produce them. Not directly related to carbon life-cycle but important nonetheless, agriculture for biodiesel has to take into account land degradation, pesticide use, water use, run-off contamination .. to name a few important aspects of the top of my head.

I am not bashing biodiesel, so much as asking folks interested in spending their money in a enviro conscience manner to consider the wider system in order to derive valid conclusions.

 

Well, here's yet another person that made the same decision, looking at VW TDI versus Prius. While I really like the idea of biodiesel (is produced domestically), I'm not sure that if a lot of people were using it that it would be practical out here in California. In Iowa, maybe. I'm pretty sure that there wouldn't be enough WVO if a lot of people were using that.

Also, you can't get a new TDI in California at all, and it isn't clear to me that it would continue to be able to meet the smog standards without cleaner diesel fuel here.

As you can tell from the above, I'm very concerned about the long term picture, since I'm a believer in "drive it until it drops"...so I don't want anything to get in the way of that, like problems with getting fuel (which is a risk with gas as well, of course).

Anyways it is a tough question, lots of ways to thnk about it.

-Roger

 

THis is off the disscussion but the relaibility of VW's have been crudy, poor .... CR loves the cars but long term and short term reliablity is no comparision to Prius. Might as well get a decent relaiblity for 20K$.

Pick up consumer's report newest issue, they have a VW and Civic's, but the old VW's were sucky.

2cents

CC

 

Hi all, Fallingwindows from the TDIclub here – hope I’ll be allowed to chime in for TDI’s here a bit – because it’s really interesting reading the two sites and all the (expected) bias and misinformation on each!

I bought my TDI used because I got a new job with a 100 mile daily commute. I’ve put 115k miles on it since then on top of the original 75k.

I don’t think there’s one answer here for everybody. The TDI wins hands down for me, but if I lived with a Prius I’m sure I’d like it too. TDI’s get a bad rap I think from people who buy them expecting to save a ton of money from getting 50mpg. Wrong reason to buy! I tell most people who are impressed with my Jetta to buy a corolla or civic or something if they want a cheap to buy and run car.

In my opinion, VW’s are driver’s cars. They should be bought and owned by enthusiasts that drive for sport as much as for utility. I simply love how solid my car feels at 100+ mph or 70mph in a tight corner. I’ve topped it out at 135mph, which I think is impressive for a 50mpg car (and it still felt good). Sometimes I get to my destination a bit late because I just couldn’t resist a detour and another row through the gears. I like the fact that I can expect 400,000 miles or more from my motor before any major work is needed. I like the 10,000 mile oil changes, 700-800 miles on a tank, the possibility of running it on 4 different fuels, and the effortless torque around town and on the highway. I like how I can hook up my laptop and change things in the engine, or cockpit controls. I like the safety, the aesthetics, and how it’s designed to be friendly to work on. Because make no mistake – you must maintain a VW.

And that’s where VW’s get a bad rap – because parts are expensive and the dealers are largely incompetent “parts throwersâ€. Many of the horror stories I hear about people spending thousands at the dealer fixing their car are sad, because the problem might not have even cost anything to fix at all! Personally, I won’t go to a dealer for a fix even if it’s free – I want to do it myself and know that it’s been done right. Bottom line is, you can’t ignore them for 100,000 miles like you could many imports. They’re not designed that way, to be driven for 100 or 150k and then disposed of. And that’s what most people these days want – a new car every few years. They don’t want to do their own work and they don’t actually want to keep a car that’s going to last for 400k miles.

If you’ve read this far, thanks for bending an ear to the “dark sideâ€

2000 VW Jetta TDI 5spd, 190k miles, 47mpg lifetime average, 43mpg worst/53mpg best

 

I am fortunate in that I happen to own both cars - a Prius and a Jetta TDI 5 speed. I run the TDI on B20 (20% biodiesel) currently and am making my way to B100. They are incredibly different cars but each seems to excel at a separate mission.

The Prius is clearly the stop and go, city car commuter winner of the two. The battery regen and shut off at stop is a huge advantage. The Prius feels extremely advanced and is clearly next generation technology. It is definitely more disconnected from the road. I am averaging about 48MPG in lots of stop and go traffic. However, I have to really struggle to get that kind of number with extremely careful driving.

The Jetta is the clear winner in the long distance touring department. In extended highway driving, I regularly get over 57 MPG without the effort that it takes to get good mileage in the Prius. The Jetta has way more torque and feels significantly more connected to the road. With Biodiesel, the Jetta's emissions are extremely low. And, considering the better long distance fuel economy, the Jetta's emissions look even better.

The Jetta's only downfall is city driving. In city conditions, the failure of the engine to shut down is a huge disadvantage and burns fuel pretty nicely. As many have said before, if you could marry a hybrid system with a diesel engine it would be the perfect car.

So, in the end, it comes down to what kind of driving you do. For mostly city driving, pick the Prius, for mostly highway driving pick the Jetta. You can't go wrong either way.

Ron

 

I was looking at the Jetta TDI, but actually, it is NOT available in New York either. NY is one of 5 states that prohibit diesel car sales.

"Note that because of emission restrictions, diesel car sales are prohibited in five states: California, Vermont, Massachusetts, Maine and New York." - From MSN


I looked at the TDI Jetta because of all the miles I do (38k a year) and my concern about battery life in the Prius.

 

When you consider a diesel cleaned up to at least SULEV and with an automatic transmission instead, there's a undeniable MPG penalty verses what has been discussed.

But realistically, how much of the population actually does nothing but high-speed cruising anyway?

And why the heck is TDI being compared to Prius? That makes no sense. One is a technology. The other is a vehicle. This is clearly a misrepresentative topic.

It should be TDI or HSD.

 

Ron and fallingwindows, thanks for the thoughtful posts. We considered a TDI quite a bit. Biodiesel is manufactured in Seattle and we can get it at the pump locally. We didn't choose the TDI Passat due to concerns of reliability and the TDI Jetta due to cramped back seat space and again reliability issues. We spoke to lots of people (on the bus and ferry we're a chatty group) and heard too many stories of quality control issues with body parts like with window switches, and all sorts of nagging details that for us meant too much time at the shop. Not one Prius owner complained about quality.

But you are totally correct about the driving factor, it is a much tighter, more comfortable (driver's seat) and more connected-to-the-road car and much more fun with a manual transmission. The TDI family also has significantly better visibility. I heard rumor that VW is coming out with a diesel hybrid in 08? If yes, that should be an interesting vehicle.

 

http://john1701a.com/prius/owners/jesse3.htm




<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Catskillguy @ Apr 13 2006, 10:34 PM) [snapback]239529[/snapback]</div>

 

Saw a Jetta TDI with Oregon plates on the freeway the other morning here in SD. The white bumper was covered with soot at the tail pipe. I can hardly wait until they're legal here.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fallingwindows @ Apr 13 2006, 01:17 PM) [snapback]239362[/snapback]</div>

Clearly he's a VW fanboy, but VW's poor reliability and many of the problems I hear from coworkers and others w/their VWs has nothing to do w/lack of maintenance. How can you attribute things like peeling interiors, interior bits breaking, electrical probs, climate control panels that quit working, traction control system not disengaging correctly, sunroofs that don't close right, batteries that failed prematurely and car stereo malfunctions to "not maintaining it"? The last 4 things happened to a coworker of mine within a year of buying his new (at the time) VW Jetta in <1 year. I kept insisting that he not get a VW (or Mercedes C class that he was considering) because of reliability and value for the $. How do you "maintain" a climate control panel?

There are fanboys of everything though...

It's not a surprise to me that VW does fairly poorly in reliability ratings (I trust Consumer Reports a lot more than JD Power).
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2004-1...cars-usat_x.htm
http://www.usatoday.com/printedition/money...ports02.art.htm
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/pr...orst-models.htm
http://www.jdpower.com/news/releases/press....asp?ID=2005089

I wonder why so many diesel (usually VW) fanboys make claims like the above about engines lasting 400K miles and that they're just being broken in at 100K miles, etc. Unfortunately, CR doesn't have any reliability stats broken separately out for VW diesel models, but judging by the engine reliability ratings of VW vehicles in general [I'm guessing diesel is lumped in there], their engine reliability is fairly poor.

CR in their latest auto issue stated "Overall, eight-year-old Toyotas are about as reliable as three-year-old Fords and Chryslers and two-year-old Volkswagens. Toyotas have about half the problems of Volkwwagens when new and only a quarter of the problems when five years old."

My hypothesis on VW is that their quality even within a model is very inconsistent and all over the scale. There are a few I know who claim to have had little or no trouble w/their VW. There's much larger set who've had moderate to lots of problems.

 

I wonder why so many diesel (usually VW) fanboys make claims like the above about engines lasting 400K miles and that they're just being broken in at 100K miles, etc. [/quote]

We say this because if you do regular compression tests on a TDI engine, you find that the compression increases up to about 90k miles. It therefore takes about that long to break in and get maximum performance and economy. Diesels are all about compression. And there are lots of folks out there who have driven older VW diesels to over 400k miles without a rebuild. That's not to say by that time you won't have replaced 1/2 the car around the engine - how many tires, shocks, batteries, bushings etc. do you think you'd go through in 10-20 years of constant driving?

You guys should also know that out of maybe 15 vehicles I've owned, my TDI has been by far the most problematic. I attribute this to some quality issues and obviously poor maintenance by the previous owner. Nevertheless, I love it like no other car I've ever owned and hope that when it's worn out, stolen, or totaled I can buy an even more advanced and fun to drive diesel. There's a reason that diesel is such the rage in Europe!

One thing I also never hear discussed - what are the total emissions before you even drive the first mile in a car? The environmental costs to build the vehicle and ship it to the consumer. I'm sure it's shocking, and another reason I like to buy such items for the long haul.

I applaud hybrid technology and I'm glad you folks are out here supporting it. I can't wait to see what the future brings. VW has test TDI's getting over 200mpg right now and I would love to see a super clean diesel electric hybrid as well. I'm sure the Prius is a great choice for most of you and takes less wrench time than my VW. Just thought I'd weigh in on the TDI side, Consumer Reports is not the whole story! Thanks B)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mirza @ Apr 14 2006, 12:29 AM) [snapback]239573[/snapback]</div>

Yes, that is another reason why I took the plunge. From everything I was able to read here & elsewhere, the battery issue was much overhyped. I hope to set a record!! Maybe Toyota would give a new one for free?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(flareak @ Jan 11 2006, 07:11 AM) [snapback]187669[/snapback]</div>

I remember an official of the city of New York commenting on the fact that the city's Prius fleet would actually clean the air during rush hour, since the emissions were cleaner than the ambient air during rush hour in the city.

George

 

:lol: Seems to me that all the good and bad points have been discussed here. However, having owned several VW diesels and now an 05 and 06 Prius, there is really no good comparison and in addition, the only way to get good mpg with the diesel is to go with a straight shift. The auto just doesnt get very good mpg. Good luck.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mardikes @ Apr 14 2006, 12:26 PM) [snapback]239736[/snapback]</div>

I have to disagree with that statement. If the air is already dirty, the Prius will not clean it up. It will still produce pollution, but just a lot less than other cars. Even if you drive under EV mode. You will not clean up the air, you just don't produce air pollution from ur tail pipe.

 

I've never driven a TDI but I did own a 2000 Jetta automatic for 6 years. It had wonderful forward visibility as someone else mentioned, in addition to excellent sporty steering and cornering, and it felt very connected to the road, and was comfortable. Also, despite a horrendous lack of oil fillups or changes on my part, the engine never had any problems. And the car never developed any rattles of any sort, even though I was an extremely rough and very leadfooted driver.

However, there were many many electrical malfunctions (fan, A/C, brake lights, interior lights, turn signals, power windows, battery, etc.) and it seemed like I was constantly turning it in to dealers to get stuff fixed. And the windshield wipers were useless, and I had some other problems too.

Basically it was a very fun car, but I'd hesitate to get another VW due to reliability issues, especially the diesels which seem to require constant maintenance and/or repair, after perusing the TDIClub.com forums (I post occasionally as CGameProgrammer on there).

The Japanese cars (hybrid or not) don't offer as good visibility and they definitely don't feel as connected or solid or fun as my VW, but they're supposed to be much more reliable and they depreciate very slowly. Also I think the Prius is the least enjoyable hybrid so that's probably not the best car to compare to the TDIs.

Oh, and since the Golf, Jetta, and Beetle are all essentially the same car, just referring to them as TDIs, without being more specific, is fine IMO.

 

I switched from VW Golf (Gas) to Prius. I love both cars and I still miss the joy of driving the VW. The switch was made because
1. I was experiencing some problems with the VW and I didn't want to deal with it.
2. Test driven the Prius and love it.

Question for you is, what is the main factor that will affect your choice?

If it is mainly on reducing your budget on gas/diesel/fossil fuel etc, then EPA MPGs suggest you to get a Prius.
By looking at check list on schedule maintenance for both cars, you might end up having a higher cost of ownership depending if you are a 'do it yourself guy'. Since you are not residing in areas with extreme weather, you do not have to worry about diesel coagulating during extreme cold...

From my personal experience, I cost of ownership has not been reduced significantly because I am paying more for insurance (single, below 30) and registration (new car). Also, this is a personal problem, I drive more because $/mile is lower. So overall I am not saving that much, or not at all.

I remember reading somewhere, diesel engines are currently exclusive to European cars and they tend to claim that they have less negative impact to the environment compare to gas burning engine. However, things might be a little different here in the US because Europeans have a cleaner grade diesel (because of regulations) and diesel engines tend to burn cleaner on the other side of the Atlantic.

Just my 2 cents.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ScottY @ Apr 14 2006, 10:07 AM) [snapback]239754[/snapback]</div>

To the extent that the car takes in air to burn fuel, that air then goes through the emissions process and can technically come out with less pollutants of certain types.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mardikes @ Apr 14 2006, 04:27 PM) [snapback]239843[/snapback]</div>

hm... that could be true. Is there any test done to prove that the air going into the intake of Prius is dirtier than the air coming out of the tail pipe?