Out of fuel, yet? Dealer update on flashing bar syndrome

For what its worth.

When I was 16 and didn't have much $ I worried about running out of gas so watched the gas guage a lot. Now I just fill up[ when I am at a station that has relatively cheap gas, usually around 2 or 3 bars showing. IMO the effort to try to squeeze every last drop of gas into or out of a tank is not worth the effort - a needless exercise, so if the tank guage is not 100% on no worries mate.

 

i think toyota made a mistake on the prius fuel tank.

i recognize that: 1) toyota probably wanted to keep the weight down and so opted for a smaller tank, and 2) they probably had severe packaging constraints to make sure everything would fit on the car... BUT...

it seems stupid to me that they didn't opt for a larger fuel tank on the new prius. one of the real (and psychological) benefits of having a high-efficiency vehicle is the feeling of freedom and security afforded by being able to drive long distances on a single tank of fuel. let's assume the average, real-world mpg of the 2004 prius is something like 45 mpg (i've seen everywhere from 33-53... john's latest is something like 45.9). despite the 11.9 gallon tank, most people will probably fill up after using 10 gallons or less. that's only 450 miles on a reasonable tank. (because of the guess gauge, many people are filling up after only 8 gallons... that's only 360 miles, but then that's a separate issue.) what if the tank had a 16 gallon capacity, allowing people to fill up reasonably after 14 gallons used: that's 630 miles! this would be a great "feature" to pitch to potential buyers. and for those who will inevitably argue that the 2004 will do better than 45, great, then this "feature" only improves. i have a vw beetle tdi that can go from slc to reno on a tank, and it's awesome to only have to stop when one wants to.

anyone seen the tank yet? is there more room around it to allow for toyota to consider a bigger tank or are we stuck with the small tank throughout the entire mark ii production run?

 

Actually Terkar, I am one that does try to extend my range as much as possible. I drive 100 miles every day. My previous commuter car - a Daewoo Lanos, would require being filled every third day. It got tiresome after a while to have to fill that car every ~250 miles. Being able to push the Toyota some 450 to 500 miles makes for less time spent feeding the car. When you have as little free time as I do, every place you can pick up an additional 15 to 20 minutes for yourself is a godsend.

That tank bladder is the sole thing in this car that irritates me. You have to really make an effort to fill the tank completely. Even then, you are at the mercy of how colt the temps are outside during the winter, when that bladder gets stiff, and won't expand properly to hold the full capacity of fuel. IMO the guage accuracy is less to do with the sender and float as it is that bladder. Why they couldn't have stayed with a normal tank that is easily filled consistently is beyond me.

 

My experience...

Is that when I get the "Low Fuel" warning on the screen, I never can fill up the tank more than 8.8 gallons or so. That means I have another 3 gallons to go, right? So, when that "Low Fuel" warning screen comes on from now on I'm going to reset my trip odometer and wait another 100 miles. I'll still be safe and should have more capacity the next time I fill the tank!

Ben

 

Nope, it means that the tank is low. Depending on how cold it is where you live, you may ot be able to realize the full capacity of the fuel tank as the bladder has shrunk from the cold. Once the bladder gets warmed up, it will expand like it should, and allow you to fill to the actual capacity of the tank.

When you fill the tank, you need to keep it on the lowest flow setting for the pump. Once that's done, you need to let the car sit for a minute while the bladder expands, and the air escapes. You then have to trickle it in a little at a time, allowing the air to escape untill it's full. I have spilled fuel on a couple of occasions trying to get the feel for filling this car. I have since been able to get quite consisitent on my fills, so long as the temps are at least in the 50's when I'm filling the tank.

 

OK Wolfman - I agree, given your commute, I can see where getting the tank full and doing it as infrequently as possible is important.

I am retired and sometimes forget how important time was when I was working.

 

I also drive about 100 miles each day (commute is 40 miles each way). It also hasn't been above freezing here in a long time, so to me there is a difference between filling up every other day and every third day (in my current car).

 

I am just curious on where in the country it takes 15-20 minutes to add 8 gallons of fuel to a vehicle?I will make sure to stay away from there.

 

I'm in Southern California and the temps are no where near as cold as some of you are reporting, yet I have the same problems with filling my '04 and inaccuracy of the gauge. My '03 is actually pretty good on accuracy. What I am finding on my '04 is that after falling to about the 1/3 left level, the gauge plummets like a rock. The unknown, of course, is how much fuel is actually in the tank. Is it the gauge or is it the tank? Not wanting to find out that it is the tank, I fill up when things start flashing, which is usually around 350 miles. My '03 will go 475-500 on a tank before the bar starts flashing. In fact, one thing I had hoped they would change on the '04 is to actually have a low fuel warning light. Having one tiny blue bar flashing is not really enough of a warning. Need a nice orange light like other cars, especially considering the danger of running out of fuel and then pushing the hybrid batteries too much and destroying them. Perhaps Coastel E-tech could come up with such an add on light??

 

I asked this before, probably in the 2004-Prius Yahoo group, and was assured the car wouldn't be driveable past a point where that would hurt the battery. Some circuit would stop the car. I assume for now that this is true.

MEANWHILE, I ignored the flashing gauge for a few days, trying to get to 400 miles at 41.8MPG average. This was a baby-step toward burning a full 10 gallons (in this case it would have been 418 miles) before filling up.

At 397 I was right near a Shell station, and since I wanted to test Shell gas I filled up. And I mean *filled* up. The d**n handle was broken, so when I crossed 10 gallons I started wondering, and when I passed 11 gallons (remember: 397 miles at 41.8MPG average) I stopped. Nothing bad happened at that point, so I pulled out the nozzle.

GLUB! Gas stated coming out!

Cramming the nozzle back in, I gave it a moment and after a few tries, no more gas came out. I ended up with 11.121 gallons going in, with at most (I guesstimate) .1 gallons coming back out. There's no return hose on the pump, so I don't think any went back down to an underground tank.

So something weird happened. Perhaps all the missing space where the bladder didn't want to go before has now been occupied by gasoline, and I'll be driving a while longer before the first bar on the gauge goes away. I doubt this bladder-stretching exercise will change anything when I go to another pump with a working nozzle, but I can always hope.

I believe the average MPG more than the put-back-gallons-versus-miles one, but just in case, does anyone think the average could have missed more than 1 gallon of gas going by?...

 

For those of you who are environmentally concerned, be aware that any sort of topping off (filling without the nozzle fully in the tank) releases very, very significant quantities of pollution into the air, many times what driving on several tanks worth does. Most metro areas have fume recovery systems mandated on the nozzle (either the "hose" which encompasses the nozzle, or a vacuum system with small holes near the tip which draws fumes back into the storage tank), filling without the nozzle fully inserted invalidates this system and causes significant pollution.

Bill

 

Picking up where Cyclone left off (cool dog!), I fully agree with his pollution observation (except it is vapor, not fumes...). Perhaps I am missing some information on this tank bladder situation since my car is still on order. That said, please bear with me as I list what I think is true and perhaps the group can guide me right.

1. The bladder is not a space saver, or weight saving innovation. Rather, it is a new approach to dealing with gasoline vapor containment.

2. The problem with the fuel guage stems from the fact it is not properly designed to deal with a tank that has a "flexible" volume.

3. Cars should not "emit" liquid gasoline, or pressurized vapor through the fill port. Stepping beyond the pollution issues, there is catastrophic safety and chronic health issues. This will result in some form of recall correction of this reported problem, hopefully before someone is hurt.

4. Trying to get a maximum quantity of gasoline into anything is (arguably) inherently dangerous. On other cars, it can lead to: disrupting the pollution controls (sending liquid gasoline down the vapor recovery lines); spewing gasoline out cap seals while taking sharp turns (not likely in a new car); or, vapor / liquid leakage as the tank's content warms up (if still overfilled).

Perhaps they'll have a fix for this soon. My guess, wild as it may be, would be before the end of this summer.

 

simple question:

if i don't care about maxing out my tank and am ok with whatever the pace of refills is, will i be "spit" on when i fill up my tank?

i sure hope not. i have yet to fill it up for the first time (probably this weekend).

thanks.
-r

 

I've only filled three times so far, but I've not been spit on. I set the lever to the slowest position, let it sit for 15 seconds when finished, and pull out. I do not top off.

 

I hope my above statements do not cause confusion. I based my "understanding" from what I've read on this thread and others here at Prius Chat. I do not yet have my Prius, so I do not offer any firsthand input. The problem, according to the various reports I've read, seems to be that the tank can "spit back" when you seek to top off. Sure, other cars can do something similar to this when they are not only topped off, but overfilled. Overall, I wonder about the wisdom of the "bladder" design, and whether it unnecessarily causes this problem. Also, it is my presumption that the bladder produces difficulty in tracking actual tank content (Re: fuel guage inaccuracy).

Most of all, I'd like to know what others think of these half-nice person theories of mine. :wink:

 

I think a spit-back requires either a broken filler (like mine), or MANY repeated attempts to make a working filler keep filling.

One theory of mine is that notching the gasket, by cutting small V-shaped groves in it, would allow the gas vapors to escape and let the filler put more fluid inside the tank.

Of course, any Green aspect of the car depends on not leaking much vapor, so this would be for people who want fewer hassles no matter what.

And, of course, I'm *not* going to notch my own gas tank until I hear someone else has proven the theory works. I come up with ideas, but *good* ones are few and far between...