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Capacitors

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Technical Discussion' started by JoshuaS, Feb 9, 2015.

  1. JoshuaS

    JoshuaS New Member

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    I am doing a research project dealing with the Prius battery traction system. I am in need of as much information as possible. The year isn't of major importance.

    To be a more specific, I am highly interested in any information dealing with the capacitors. How many are there? What is each capacitors rating? Equivalent capacitance? Anything along those lines plus more.

    I have been to multiple Toyota dealerships and they do not have that information. I have contacted corporate Toyota but they just referred me to my local Toyota dealership. I am at a loss here and running out of options other than going to a junk yard and buying/testing the parts myself (if they even have it). I have seen many after market modifications online but I need to use the OEM Prius data as my baseline.

    I really would appreciate any help. The dealership referred me here since there is a wide variety of expertise and knowledge here. Again, thanks in advance for any information or guidance anyone can provide.
     
  2. JimboPalmer

    JimboPalmer Tsar of all the Rushers

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  3. rjparker

    rjparker Tu Humilde Sirviente

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    Exactly what and why do you need to know about Prius capacitors? No "flux capacitor" or really any power related capacitors exist in the Prius other than some small filtering caps as shown in the pics above.
     
  4. JoshuaS

    JoshuaS New Member

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    Those are just filtering caps? I thought they were to act as a "buffer" for the battery for regen braking and acceleration?
     
  5. rjparker

    rjparker Tu Humilde Sirviente

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    Modern high frequency switching power supplies and inverters don't rely on big capacitor banks like older linear power supplies did. This makes them smaller and importantly, more efficient. The following link describes the concepts. Think of the regen charging in a hybrid as an AC generator supplying a switching power supply to generate DC to charge the battery.
    Ken Shirriff's blog: Apple didn't revolutionize power supplies; new transistors did
     
  6. JoshuaS

    JoshuaS New Member

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    Ok thanks. That will keep me from going on the complete wrong track. Again, I've been asking everywhere and haven't been able to find any specs on their inverter either. Everything seems to be on a "need to know basis" and not even the dealership needs to know these things. I suppose I could look at other 3300 uF capacitors on DigiKey and find out their specs such as frequency response , ECR, etc. I would still need to know what the actual frequency, current ratings, etc. are for the inverter though to know what to expect from the capacitors right?
     
  7. JimboPalmer

    JimboPalmer Tsar of all the Rushers

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  8. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    they're probably worried you're working for a law firm on a class action suit.:cool:
     
  9. kc410

    kc410 Active Member

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  10. rjparker

    rjparker Tu Humilde Sirviente

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    The linked 572 page manual is probably Toyota's most definitive public pdf. It includes waveforms from which frequency could be obtained. However in places you will see "TOYOTA's intellectual property" meaning they don't want everyone to know all the details as much of it is patented.
     
    #10 rjparker, Feb 9, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: May 30, 2022
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  11. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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  12. JoshuaS

    JoshuaS New Member

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    Lol no I'm a student. I'm just doing a research project is all. I'm an electrical engineering student focusing on power and energy.
     
  13. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    The Toyota ultracap experiments are in their TS040 race car: Toyota TS040 Hybrid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Inside the car, the air-bag system uses caps to fire the air-bags in the event the 12V battery power is lost.

    GOOD LUCK!
    Bob Wilson
     
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  14. JoshuaS

    JoshuaS New Member

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    This is great!
    That car is bad!!! Electric cars are the way of the future. By the way, thanks for the link for ORNL's research. That should answer a lot of my questions if I can sort through it all.
     
  15. David Beale

    David Beale Senior Member

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  16. JoshuaS

    JoshuaS New Member

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    I read the article and in think I understand how the boost converters work in general. Doesn't the capacitor act as a "source" for the load while the inductor is charging.
     
  17. rjparker

    rjparker Tu Humilde Sirviente

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    A boost converter in this case is a DC/DC converter that takes 201 vdc and converts it to a higher dc voltage before it is passed to the inverter to be modulated into 3 phase vac for the motors. Usually the complete power circuit is called a variable frequency drive (VFD). So you could look up theory of operation for a VFD for better information. In any case, a boost converter increases the dc voltage while decreasing the dc current with a little loss to heat. So while it is probably true it is temporarily storing an increasing voltage level and is essential for the circuit, it might be stretching it to say it is a source for the load. It has to charge and discharge quickly in a high frequency power supply, so whatever is the best terminology might be in the engineering theory books. It's been more than 40 years since I had an EE class so you probably have access to the best references.
     
  18. Redpoint5

    Redpoint5 Senior Member

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    3300 uF is quite a low capacity. I just purchased 5x of the BCAP3400 supercaps from Mouser to replace the 12v lead-acid battery in my truck. It has a series capacitance of 680 farads.

    A more interesting study might be Mazda's SkyActiv systems. It has a sort of regen that is activated when the driver steps on the brake, and it charges super caps which are then used in the 12v electrical system. It's a way to recapture some of the energy that would normally be wasted when decelerating. Supercaps are much more efficient at recapturing that energy since there is practically no limit to how quickly they are charged, and there are very low losses since they aren't undergoing a chemical change. Batteries have a limited charge rate and loose a large amount of energy in the chemical reaction process.
     
  19. JoshuaS

    JoshuaS New Member

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    Yeah your right.....3300 uF is low. I'll post a pic of what I was looking at. I was looking at a pic that has 6 3300 uF caps. I'm not sure how they're wired though.
     
  20. David Beale

    David Beale Senior Member

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    There is a box in the rear by the 12V battery like you were looking at. It's there to keep the important systems working until you can bring the car to a stop in case the 12V battery fails catastrophically (internal short, open, fuse failure, etc). It also provides some "regulation" to the 12V system, absorbing spikes etc. It is not there to "power the car" in the strictest sense of the word. The Prius doesn't use capacitors to power the car, it just uses the "traction battery". The Toyota Hybrid race car does use "super capacitors" to help power the car.

    Remember there are two power systems in the Prius, one 12V system for the electronics and other smaller systems (seat heat for example), and the high voltage system, with a 201V battery and inverter that puts 560V or so to the 3 phase motor/generators and the A/C system pump. Both must be fully operational for the Prius to work.