Code P0A80 -- seeking info and feedback

Can we get that in writing?

 

FHoP

 

I have a 2006 with 182,000 with the same codes (cell ten is a popular cell to go bad it seems) that popped up a few weeks ago. On a Friday my wife noted the car's check engine light came on with the triangle - about two hours later I checked it and only the triangle and check engine light were on. The next day nothing was on and the car was fine. The next day it sat and the following day (Monday) as soon as I started it - triangle, ASC, ABS, Check Engine. I am fairly mechanically minded/handy and have no issues tearing into the car. The dealer reviewed the car and said the HV battery needs replaced (as did Autozone). I replaced the 12V(dealer noted needed replacing) just yesterday (1/18/15). I have read through the threads and know my options are:

1. Tear it apart and try to learn about hybrid battery cell replacement/balancing/conditioning plus account for a few days without a car (not really an option).
2. Junkyard ($600, 6 month warranty).
3. Parts store ($1200 plus $1000 core - Dorman reman with 3 yr warranty, should last at least 3 but probably around 5-6 maybe?)
4. Toyota - new ( $2589 plus $1350 core with 12 month warranty but should last 8+yrs; apparently in the STL area dealers do not offer online pricing).

I've been driving the car back and forth to work (issue/lights started on 1/5/15)and it's been fine other than "crappy" gas mileage. Last Friday on the way home it the ICE jumped way up in RPM and the car lost any ability to accelerate. On the screen it stopped showing any "flow" into or out of the motor. And even putting the car into "B" mode resulted in nothing - it wouldn't try to slow the car down. I had to stop at a light and upon green the car would barely get out of its own way. I pulled over and shut it off, started it back up - all good. This happened about 3 times on my trip home with the first about 30 minutes into the drive, highway, no big hills, 55mph - then it did it again about 2 minutes later, pulled over - off/on - good to go. That got me another 10 minutes before it did it again. Yesterday with the whole family in the car I drove 20+ minutes with no issues to a relative's house. Two hours later went to drive home with just one other person in the car and it went about 10 minutes down the road. Again it happened this morning on the way to work so I had to pull over three times on a 45 minute commute with a quick shut off/turn on and it works. What is this??

I have no scan tools to hook up. I know I need to fix the car but with its mileage I have been trying to figure out the best option.

Second main question - will the hybrid battery conditioner in the forum shop fix the HV battery? I saw a mention of something like 97% rate.

Thanks for the help.

 

If you are serious about DIY repair you will get Mini VCI now so that you can verify what DTC are logged by your car.

It does sound like the traction battery has died. Given the alternatives you cited, I personally would try the salvage yard battery, if you can get one from a late 2G model year which has not logged more than 100K miles.

I don't think you can expect a battery conditioner/charger to do much for your battery now that a module apparently has failed.

 

You are experiencing "limp mode" where there hybrid system will not allow much current through the battery, as it is usually overheating, in these cases. Do you hear the fan running in the back seat? Does the SOC indicator go from all green to purple rapidly? (recalibration cycles).

What were the DTC's that the dealer obtained? Call them and ask, since you paid for it. Please list them here. If you want to dig into this, get the mini VCI.

It is too soon to quote any really convincing statistics, but initially the conditioner looks like a good method. No one can yet say how it will work with your particular case. Given the miles on the car, and the fact that you can't be without it for even a few days, then you would want to consider getting a reman or junk yard battery, if you plan on selling the car soon. If not, go with a new battery from the dealer, and forget about it for the rest of the life of the car.

 

Auto zone codes were P0A80 and p3020.

Tonight it did the high revving high jinx again. It was odd in that I was going around 60 with the screen showing around 70% (top blue bar) but then the headlights flicker and high revs. Then if I keep driving, finding a place to pull over and off/on the car, the battery just slowly loses charge, no engine breaking, no brake regen - just floats like it is in neutral. How come the time to high revving varies? Also how come all it takes to make things work again is a quick off/on? Not really complaining on that one though.

I have noticed that even though it can be at the top blue bar when I restart it is two purples but then it seems after 30 seconds it is almost half again. Is that a true sign she's a goner?

It is definitely an issue where do we trade it in on a newer one as is or do we fix it and then trade it in or simply fix it and hope the miles do not start making things a bummer.

Yes the fan always comes on high as soon as the ICE fires up. It makes some sense in that when the car first coded it was in the 30's but lately the day temp has been around 55. Would it help if I perhaps leave the back passenger window down?

 

Those codes confirm that the traction battery is the issue and that the failed module is located at module pair #10.

The driveability issue is forced by the hybrid vehicle ECU which receives a report from the traction battery ECU that module pair #10 is bad. You can temporarily work around that by restarting the car, which gives you another brief period of time while the HV ECU decides that the battery is bad. However you will find that as the traction battery gets worse, eventually a restart is not going to help.

Rapid changes in traction battery SOC is a good sign that the battery has failed. Leaving the window open is not going to help. Yes, you need to decide whether to fix the car now, or trade it in. My suggestion is that you will maximize the trade in value if the car is operational at the time of trade in.

 

The charger system will fix an out of balance battery or one that has self discharged. It will NOT fix a cell/module that has experienced a hard failure, such as an internal short or high IR. Unfortunately there is now way to know fur sure which type of failure you are experiencing.

Yes, I agree - sort of . Odds are our products will not be able to save the failed module (50/50 chance at best). How ever, the least expensive method (and one that several of our customers including well known battery re-builders use) is to replace the failed module pair and then perform the deep cycling to break down crystals and rebalance the rest of the pack. This will extend the life of the rest of the modules that have not yet failed and balance the replacements into the rest of the pack. This of course does take time - several hours to swap out the bad modules and a few days to do a triple deep cycling.

 

I really appreciate the feedback. The window down idea, as mentioned above, did not help other than I was cold.

On the charger - that is what I was thinking mostly - no real guarantee since we don't know which part of the magic has escaped the electrical system. Obviously the charger at $400 (not sure if there is another component which would be needed, a discharger?) would be the cheapest option if it fixes the battery. And it seems to be a good investment, only wish I had known about it when it came out as it seemingly would have kept me from the issue I have having now. But at this time I can only spend so much on the car which means I couldn't get the charger and if it doesn't work then I'd have to wait longer to get a battery. I doubt, and truly wouldn't expect, to be able to return it if it didn't fix the battery. On the junkyard battery option I noted - that is just the price I've been able to get but haven't actually been there to see what they even have, if any. I have thought perhaps get a junkyard unit and the charger then hook those up on a bench to see what I can get - but again it would be a gamble. Would that work? Setting it up on a bench with the charger unit?

The junkyard said only a 6 month warranty as they were not sure if they would have any cores that I could swap if the one I got didn't work. But either charger+junkyard = $1000 6 months or parts store = $1200+$1000 core (36 months warranty) - still not a small amount of money.

Anyone know if the dorman battery warranty is transferrable? Thinking on the trade-in option on the car and would it be a usable to the dealer/next buyer therefore a plus to the value.

It still seems odd that there is such a wide range of time spans of when this mode comes on. For instance this morning I didn't even get 5 minutes but after a restart it lasted over 10 - true the first five was around 35mph and the next ten was 55-65mph. Past that it barely went 5 minutes, at around 45-55, but then lasted over ten at 60-65. Any ideas if I try to use the battery more - such as let the car slow and then full throttle it for a period? It seems that the battery stays around 7 bars on the main part of the drive and that is when it will go into limp mode. When I stop I have to accelerate fairly quickly as I am getting up to 55-65mph and the battery will run down to maybe 3 blue bars but then as I get off the pedal it gets up to green and stays there. Thoughts on that? Again though I know I need to get the car fixed I am really just trying to get the solution sorted out and parts bought while still being able to get back and forth to work. I have been wondering though when restarting the car either won't make a difference or as soon as I take off it goes right back into limp mode.

After I got to work I sat with the car in Park and watched the screen (not sure of how accurate it is) and the ICE was on, fan was on (as usual with the codes set). The battery was at 6 bars, would drop to 5 bars after about 15 seconds then the ICE would slightly idle up, the screen showed the orange arrow from the ICE to the motor then yellow to the battery. After about 10-15 seconds it would be back up to 6 bars and the idle would drop down, arrows gone. Then the cycle would repeat.

Odd thing I noticed was when the car was in limp mode and I shut it off to do te restart you can hear a whining down, sounding to me like a generator. I know the car has the generators (not fully versed on the car) but it is like they are fully connected to the ICE so you hear everything spin down like something isn't or wont' disengage. And again it is odd as the screen shows nothing trying to charge the battery pack so why would a generator be engaged with the ICE. Perhaps I am talking complete nonsense - I admit up until now I've just enjoyed the great MPG (60 on one tank once, usually 55) and haven't tried to dive into the pure operation of the car.

I am planning to swing by Autozone again tonight on the way home and see if any other codes have popped up. The two codes I listed were from a few days after the lights came on but the limp mode issue only just started last week. My concern is there is something else wrong under the hood.

Thanks again for the great feedback.

 

I very much doubt that there is anything else wrong of significance. What you describe has also been posted by many people here, now that the GenII's are well into their years. The car is doing what it is supposed to do under the circumstance, and the only way to proceed is to repair the battery one way or the other.

 

I went to a parts store last night and ordered the battery. Using city streets to cut across town was a fun adventure as the bad battery did not seem to care much for it - I would get only 5 minutes or so before I had to pull over and shut it off. However given that I was only in 25-35mph zones the car can maintain those speeds so it wasn't a real issue just more of an annoyance.

I also had the store recheck the computer and it still showed the same two codes 080 and 3020. They cleared the codes but before I got 1/4 mile down the road the dash lit up. It took a little further before the ICE came on and stayed on and I got just about home before I had to pull over for a restart.

Is it safe to say that the initial code, set at the end of December, was noting a small problem with the battery but now that the car is going into "limp" mode the problem is more pronounced? In other words the module is getting worse? Perhaps that two week window was when I should have gotten and tried the charger?

Side question - anybody know how much less a car would be worth for trade-in with a bad battery?

Thanks again for the help.

 

Personally, I would not drive it in this condition.
You can easily become a danger to yourself and others.

Yes. The bad module is being more and more damaged with each drive.

As mentioned by Jeff of hybrid automotive, the charger would not fix a severely damaged cell. You are past that point by far.

A car with a bad battery is generally not worth much more than salvage value.
Trade in? At the best it might be KBB trade in value minus cost of a pack. (KBB says trade in is between $1,900 and $3,300)
Who ever buys it is going to have to put in a pack to get it running again.

Kelly Blue Book values assume the car has a battery that is in good condition.

Best of luck. Stay in touch.

 

Update for all - battery showed up on Friday afternoon and it was installed yesterday with no issues or complications (unless you count losing track of the 10mm socket). When checking the codes in the car prior to clearing them and starting the car the scan tool noted P0A78 and P3000 which were not the A80 and 3020 codes I had had both times prior. Once the system was cleared the car was started and taken for a test drive. No more red triangle, ASC, ABS, or check engine light. It seems as though it is back to normal. I will update if anything changes.

Thanks again for all of the feedback.

 

Post deleted ......due to author not paying attention.

 

The discussion is about the HV battery not the 12 volt.

John (Britprius)

 

Oops. Removed.

 

The battery was a Dorman unit. The instructions it came with were more about possible trouble codes and return shipping - nothing more than you can get on their website I believe. We had viewed the video on their website. There were no indications to charge the battery externally before installing it. We pulled the old out, put the new in, cleaned the battery cooling duct and fan (out of the car), cleared the codes, and started the car.

 

Priz

I'm very interested in how these Dorman batteries hold up over time. Can I persuade you to start a new thread and log your experiences over time? Hopefully it will be a very boring thread about how you put it in this week and it lasted for 10 years.

Also, what did you determine about the transferability of the warranty?

 

Yakoma,

I was going to continue to post here to keep all of the information in one spot. Hopefully I will not have much, if anything else, to really post. And this is a possible solution to the thread title so it seems pertinent.

The only things worth mentioning at this point would be:

1. The parts store was not exactly sure how the return needed to occur. They sent the FedEx truck to the shop we did the work at but there was no return label. Then the shop got a return label but FedEx was not contacted. Then after the shop called the parts store yesterday they were told that the shop needed to call FedEx to arrange pickup (despite being told the day before that the parts store "would handle it"). Supposedly today the old battery will be heading back.
2. Mileage at this point is not back where I would have expected it. Typically this time of year when it is in the 30-40 degree range I get 48-49mpg. At this time the car is holding right at 47.0mpg.
3. When watching the battery graph last night it seemed to go, while in EV mode (just over 35mph, straight through town, slight decline - a spot where in the summer I can go all the way through town in EV) the battery was at 6/7 bars but then seemed to drop straight to 2 bars and stayed there for a bit. The quick drop has me wondering what is going on or if I may be getting trouble codes in the near future. Admittedly I always used to watch the bar graph so I do not have a good history of how exactly the battery graph reacted. In the past it seemed if the car went to two bars then the ICE would kick on and back up to blue/50% in no time.
4. I need to check back in on the warranty to see about transferring ability.

Any other thoughts, input, or ideas is appreciated. I'll keep everyone posted.

 

Thanks Priz.

I've read that it takes the ECU some time to learn your driving habits and optimize MPG. Only 1 MPG off your average doesn't seem significant.

Take the time to clean the battery fan when you get a chance if you didn't already. Also, did you happen to buy a grid charger to maintain the HV battery? I've considered one, but my daughter has it at college now and can't garage park.