Ema - Red Triangle, No Gas Engine, No Codes Thrown?

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Care, Maintenance and Troubleshooting' started by CBarr31, Jan 4, 2015.

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  1. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    Hi Chris,

    Glad to hear you will have Mini VCI available to help the troubleshooting process. It would also help for you to have a digital multimeter available so you don't have to rely upon the voltage measurements per the MFD.

    While we are waiting for your return and DTC retrieval, I will offer my guess about your car:

    1. I doubt that bad gas is an issue, if it were the engine would at least make an effort to start after you disconnected/reconnected the 12V battery. Also you didn't mention the check engine light being on.
    2. Since you are driving your car at the rate of ~50K miles per year, your 12V battery should be in an excellent state of charge at all times. From your last post it sounds like the battery was responding to the charger so the 12V battery probably is not the root cause of the problem.
    3. It is possible that a traction battery system main relay failed, but that has not been reported as a high probability event.
    4. My guess, lacking knowledge of the DTC, is that the DC/DC converter in the inverter failed, which caused the 12V bus voltage to sag and the 12V battery charge to be depleted. Once you retrieve the DTC you'll be able to see what is actually going on.
    5. If in fact the inverter is the failed component, that is a reasonable DIY project and you can continue on your quest for 500K miles logged on the odometer. Certainly the inverter is a lot easier to replace than a transaxle or engine.
    6. If a system main relay failed, that also is a reasonable DIY project.
    7. Stay optimistic, as you have a reasonable shot to deal with whatever has come up with your Prius, without spending four-digits. Good luck!
     
    #21 Patrick Wong, Jan 6, 2015
  2. JC91006

    JC91006 Senior Member

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    Patrick,

    Wouldn't a failure of DC/DC converter still allow his car to start if he had enough juice in the 12v?
     
    #22 JC91006, Jan 6, 2015
  3. CBarr31

    CBarr31 Active Member

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    Ed,

    Actually all 3 water pumps now have about 2,000 miles on them. I changed them when I replaced all the suspension components and got new tires about 2,000 miles ago. I change them every 200K regardless if they have failed as PM. Also do ATF every 50K which is why Ema is in such good shape. Trying to hit 400K then 500K on original parts but we will see what the codes are when I get back to Carolina.

    Chris

    Patrick,

    Thanks again for all of your help. I carry a Fluke87 for work so have a multimeter and know how to use. I really don't think it is the battery itself unless it had some sort of catastrophic failure just now. I haven't seen any of the rapid high-low discharges that most failures see and haven't gotten any other intermittent codes. I even purchased and had installed a grid charger and have "re-balanced" the battery a couple of times with it. Even did the discharge and recharge cycle and it actually seemed to help as I posted in that thread awhile back.

    I am thinking along the lines you are now with DC/DC converter, hybrid relay, an ECU maybe or something along those lines. Hard to say without codes. I can't remember if the CEL is on or not? I will certainly post back when I get home and can pull the codes.

    Thanks again!!!
    Chris
     
    #23 CBarr31, Jan 6, 2015
  4. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    My estimate is that the Prius electronics load is at least 30A when you consider all of the ECUs and the brake actuator pump powering up; and 15A more if the vehicle lights and cabin ventilation are operating. Then you have the two PTC electric heaters which will take yet another 40A when you are trying to heat up the cabin upon cold startup.

    A current load of that magnitude will drop down the 12V battery voltage pretty quickly and cause the ECUs, especially skid control, to have a fit.

    Chris' battery is 4 years old. Although it was probably near fully-charged to start with given his driving patterns, who knows what its Ah capacity is after that period of time in service.

    I don't know whether the Prius will remain READY if the 12V bus drops below 13.5V shortly after startup. As you know, the 12V bus is supposed to be maintained at ~13.8V, regulated by the DC/DC converter.

    Excellent, I own several DMM and the Fluke 87 is my favorite. Glad to see you can rely upon a reliable DMM, not a toy.
     
    #24 Patrick Wong, Jan 6, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2015
  5. edthefox5

    edthefox5 Senior Member

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    You say you changed them at 200k but your first post says the car now has 396k.
     
    #25 edthefox5, Jan 7, 2015
  6. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    Sounds like Chris has changed the various coolant pumps twice, so far. First at 200K miles, then at 394K miles.
     
    #26 Patrick Wong, Jan 7, 2015
  7. CBarr31

    CBarr31 Active Member

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    Ed,

    The post is a little ambiguous but Patrick is correct I changed them at 200K and then again at 394K.

    Actually the first time at 200K I forgot the water pump and it failed at 206K and I had to limp to the dealer with a bunch of stops to keep her from overheating. The scangauge worked great to monitor engine temp there. My Toyota advisor and I vowed not to let that happen again so we changed all 3 pumps at 394K even though all were still functioning properly at the time.

    Chris
     
    #27 CBarr31, Jan 7, 2015
  8. JC91006

    JC91006 Senior Member

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    Almost a 200k mile run on the pumps.....I say you got your monies worth.
     
    #28 JC91006, Jan 7, 2015
  9. CBarr31

    CBarr31 Active Member

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    200K out of the pumps not once but twice. Like I said Ema has been a GREAT car which is why I am so bummned about her current condition. Not only was I excited about hitting 400K but my old advisor who is now the service manager at my Toyota shop was as was my new advisor. Both of the routinely tell me the tell other customers about Ema. I'm sure trying to sell the importance of routine maintenance and upsell things because I go there pretty much for everything but still its nice to hear.

    Chris
     
    #29 CBarr31, Jan 7, 2015
  10. CBarr31

    CBarr31 Active Member

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    Well, I really wish I could be posting DTC's for everyone to troubleshoot but when I returned home last night the compact software CD for the Mini is cracked in half. No software no DTC's

    Chris
     
    #30 CBarr31, Jan 10, 2015
  11. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    #31 Patrick Wong, Jan 10, 2015
  12. CBarr31

    CBarr31 Active Member

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    Ema LIVES!!!!!! :)(y):)(y)

    Patrick - Thanks for the link. I actually found it at download.com or somewhere I think. It took a little time to get it setup correctly and communicating but I finally did. These are the codes that were logged: P0AA6 with detail code#2 of 526, detail code#3 of 612, C0210 and B1411/B1412.

    The P0AA6 is the old high voltage isolation fault, C0210 is ABS/VSC/Trac and the last ones are A/C.

    I cleared the codes and Ema came up and starts just fine. I haven't taken her for a test ride yet but will here in a little bit. The only code still listed on the Health Check is B1412 but no lights or errors are shown on the dash or on the MFD. I think she is ok but will certainly let you know after I drive her.

    My working theory on this is the grid charger plug even though it is plugged and water resistant isn't waterproof and fell off the frame and into my spare tire area which I can get water into at times especially after hard rains. When I stopped quickly for the herd of deer water got into the plug and caused a short generating the fault. The plug was damp when I took everything apart but I didn't think anything of it at the time.

    You can be sure there is a sticky back and wire tie going on the frame up near the battery on a level spot so there is no chance of that ever happening again!!!!! Nice to have the mini-vci to troubleshoot if it does however.

    As for the B1412 code, I couldn't find anything on it with a quick search and my AC is working fine so I am not to worried about it. Might ask my Toyota guy about it next time I am in but again not really concerned about it.

    THANKS AGAIN!!!!! I really appreciate everyone's help and ideas on this one. This forum is great for the moderate DIYer's like myself.

    Happy driving,
    Chris
     
    #32 CBarr31, Jan 10, 2015
  13. Yakoma

    Yakoma Active Member

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    While your theory of the wet charger plug may be valid, there's another way to look at this.
    Your A/C code may be pointing to some issue with condensation leading to shorting in a different place (you know mixing electricity and moisture).
    This is particularly important because it's the only code that came back right away. Seems problematic to me.
    I wouldn't ignore it but use that information to troubleshoot. May require dealer/shop intervention.
     
    #33 Yakoma, Jan 10, 2015
  14. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    DTC P0AA6 / 612 points to a high voltage ground fault in the traction battery area so your theory about its cause is reasonable.

    DTC B1411 relates to an open or short in the cabin air temperature sensor. This sensor is in the dashboard.
    DTC B1412 relates to an open or short in the ambient temperature sensor, located at the condenser.

    Given the presence of both of these fault codes maybe there is something wrong with the wiring harness connector to the air conditioning amplifier or the AC amplifier itself. If the AC is working OK then this is a low priority issue. An AC fault is not going to produce a warning light.

    DTC C0210 means the right rear wheel speed sensor has a problem.
     
    #34 Patrick Wong, Jan 10, 2015
  15. JC91006

    JC91006 Senior Member

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    Strange these codes prevented the car from starting, even after Chris disconnected his 12v to reset.
     
    #35 JC91006, Jan 10, 2015
  16. CBarr31

    CBarr31 Active Member

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    Patrick,

    I've said it before but it is worth repeating over and over and over. PriusChat is LUCKY to have someone of your knowledge and expertise as member and posting to this site. I really appreciate all the fantastic direction and information you provide and I know I am not the only one. If there is ever anything I can do for you just let me know. If I am ever in your area on business I would be happy to take you and your family to the restaurant of your choice my treat!!!!!

    Thanks again!!!!

    Chris

    The plug may have still been damp on the inside when I disconnected the battery the first time. Ema has been sitting in my heated garage all week which I am sure has given anything that was wet time to dry further. If I had disconnected the battery today the codes may have cleared but who knows. I am just glad I got them cleared and she seems to be ok.

    Chris
     
    #36 CBarr31, Jan 10, 2015
    Dino33ca, Aaron Vitolins, Patrick Wong and 2 others like this.
  17. CBarr31

    CBarr31 Active Member

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    Everyone,

    I just wanted to make a final post to this thread to let everyone know I have driven Ema almost 700 miles now since clearing the codes and she has behaved normally. My MPG's are down a little but I think that is a combination of clearing all the old data, cold weather and the new Michelin Defenders that were just put on her.

    THANKS AGAIN!!!!!!! Especially to you Patrick.

    Best Regards,
    Chris
     
    #37 CBarr31, Jan 18, 2015
    SWprius08 and Dino33ca like this.
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