RIP PiP?

I think you misunderstood something. The Prius isn't a sports car, but for a car that gets the best fuel economy in it's class, it doesn't sacrifice much power.

 

How often is full power ever actually needed?

As fast as other vehicles are, there simply hasn't been dropping the pedal to the floor as a requirement in ordinary acceleration/merging.

Heck, when I do need to pull out quick, it's the burst of power from the electric-motor fulfills the short-range request just fine. That low-end torque is quite handy... and often overlooked in discussions like this.

 

The low-end torque isn't unnoticed. The Tesla makes great use of this, and the off-the-line performance of the Model-S is remarkable. It's also the reason that diesel locomotives go to the trouble of converting the power to electricity, so that the low-end torque required to move a train can be achieved.

 

Nope ! I fully understand that - last I checked I was #2 on the PiP MPGe list. And I filled up twice a year with my PiP.
Learned a lot about how to efficiently drive it and carried that to my Volt. Really didn't care for the PiP's acceleration when I needed it though.

Its funny having driven both I do see both sides. I notice so many of the PiP detractors own diff model Pri or of course other plug-ins.
Many PiP owners however won't entertain any negs on the car

 

Needed and wanted are obviously two different things. The PIP is definitely adequate for daily driving. Some people desire more though. That's why even the average economy car is faster/quicker than the PIP. The general public desires more power and generally speaking, more power results in a more enjoyable driving experience. Not everyone feels this way but the vast majority of people do whether they use the full power potential or not.

 

Yeah, they need that extra power for when they tailgate you, then whip over to the left lane, power ahead and pull into the generous gap you're leaving.

 

Out of habit, for fuel economy, I usually drive my Prius as though I were 30 years older, but when power is required, my Prius has it.

 

I used to do that too.

 

IMHO its gotten a lot better than that, particularly if you do your homework and don't get taken for a ride by your installer.

I won't repost all the details again, but you can find the details on our system install here:
Gas Prices Cheaper than Electricity Prices? | Page 2 | PriusChat
Net installed $/DC rated Watt was $1.36/W.
Production cost over a min 20 yr life is estimated at about 4c/kWh
Equivalent cost per gallon in a 50mpg vehicle: $0.58/gallon

Folks usually compute payback time, but I find the most easily understandable metric is to treat it like any other investment and compute an annualized return on investment (ROI). That is, how much do you earn back each year over and above the annualized portion of the upfront cost as a percentage of the total cost? This is equivalent to the % interest you would earn from buying something like a 12 month CD.

For our system, under the most conservative assumptions, this works out to at least 9% annualized ROI as follows:
System lifetime = 20 yrs (conservative, component warranty period)
Annual Production Estimate = 8169.6 kWh (conservative, localized estimate)
Annual Production Value = $980.35 (conservative assumption 12c/kWh usage charge, flat for next 20 yrs)
Total Net installed cost: $7000
Annualized Cost: $350 (simple depreciation to $0 over 20 years)
Annual profit: $630.35
Annualized ROI = $630.35 / $7000 = 9.0%

The ROI will increase if the system beats the conservative production estimate (ours is exceeding by 10-15%), lasts longer than 20 years (which it should), or if electricity prices rise over the 20 year period (or are already higher in your area). This simple calc assumes you have net metering, and produce less than your total consumption over the "net period" (for us its annual). For this case the wholesale buy back rate for over production and fixed fees / taxes are independant of the return calculation.

I also posted an example of how you can likely still get to as low as ~$1/W installed on a highly scalable microinverter based system with only the federal tax credit (for those whose state and utility incentives have dried up).
Gas Prices Cheaper than Electricity Prices? | Page 2 | PriusChat

Rob

 

yeah - I hear ya ...... I got the same issue .... I can't figure my return costs on a few others .... the Harley .... fender guitar .... lap dances .... charitable contributions .... gifts at christmas/birthdays for friends/loved ones .... ski boat scuba gear .... yeah ... help us out here ...

 

roi on lapdance... priceless.

 

been on here pushing 2 years, just recently noticed the biggest naysayers on plug-ins seem to be Pri 2 + 3 drivers

Not really sure why they bother I mean no one will be selling their vehicles - maybe a few will use more gas now that its getting closer to $2 but seems like most here are about more than saving a few cents...

 

i think we're just bored, holiday burnout.

 

haha maybe right but its puzzling that they bother
Bisco - Did you make a bundle driving New Year's ? was it Lyft or maybe I'm confusing you w another Boston area driver...

 

ya, not me, i was in bed at 11:00.

 

Except micro-inverters are not as reliable as full-string inverters. Plenty of documentation as to the reasons for this. Granted, a single microinverter failure only affects output of a single panel (reducing output only from that panel), whereas a typical inverter's failure kills the entire system. Putting temperature-sensitive electronics with electrolytic capacitors on a cooking surface (roof) just doesn't seem advisable.

The inverter we're installing has two channels, with the two strings from our south-facing panels going to one channel, and the second (more easterly facing but on two different roof levels) to the other. I did a lot of research before I concluded that not using microinverters didn't significantly affect system overall output.

EDIT: I also didn't address the fact that the net improvement in output using microinverters is no where near what you'd expect. Put another way, shading of a panel or two won't decrease output by 50% unless you have a really poorly designed system. The reliable sources (that don't have a dog in the hunt) show maybe 10-20% better output with microinverters in partially shaded systems compared to a string inverter. But remember that each failure of a microinverter (and they do fail!) requires two people to remove the panel to access the microinverter. And once the failed one is replaced, all your other microinverters have aged and will fail sometime in the future. In my system with 24 x 275W panels, the costs of dealing with multiple failure points (and repairs to the roof after multiple people walking on it) more than offset any reduction in output with a single point of failure.

 

I drive some for Lyft, but didn't on NYE.

 

ahhh that's right - you're the one !
Bisco could've made enough for a year's worth of charges driving New Year's around Boston