murai fuel cell gets a video and plans for other states.

Going off at a bit of a tangent but after reading this (and a similar) thread about the viability of FCVs and how ready or not they are for market got me thinking.

One of the regular comments of naysayers about BEVs is that the batteries are very expensive to replace if they fail out of warranty. I guess this is true and the replacement for a Nissan Leaf or a Renault EV is about £5,000 (or $5,000 as our prices inc 20% tax). Many warranties are 100k miles and that isn't a particularly high mileage these days.

So how long will a fuel cell last and how much would it cost to replace if it failed outside of warranty? £10k? £20k? more? What is the most expensive part on a FCV?

I'm just curious that after spending £60k on a Mirai, whether it would have a further sting in it's tail.

 

So your battery fails on a 110k mile Leaf, you scrap it as it's borderline viable whether to bother fixing.

The fuel cell fails on your 110k mile Mirai, you also scrap it as it's not viable spending £20k on a new fuel cell and people with the expertise to fix them will be thin on the ground.

Hmmm. It's been hard enough convincing the public that replacing a battery in a BEV is just the same cost as changing the transmission in a traditional car. Convincing them that replacing a £20k/$30k fuel cell will be impossible. And who would buy a second hand or used FCV out of warranty?

Is it me or do FCVs just not add up?

 

That's an excellent question and I was planning to raise it on this thread in the near future.

I haven't been following fuel cell technology very closely until recently. I understand that fuel cell stacks wear out as they are used although I don't understand why (buildup of contaminants from impure hydrogen and air pollution etc.?). Over time the stack is able to put out less and less power and eventually needs to be replaced.

This has apparently been one of the (many) major fuel cell engineering challenges. From the limited reading I have done, fuel cells have needed to be replaced after 75-100k miles.

Has Toyota improved this to 150,000 miles or more? I don't know and they haven't said much about that as far as I can tell.

 

The subsidy.

 

The Leaf may get scrapped because the current rate of battery improvement means the newest model will likely have longer range and other possible performance improvements. Then upgrading an older model to the newer pack may involve other expenses beyond the pack itself, like reprograming the computer and possible upgrades for the charger and inverter.

FCVs are looking to be disposable cars, which may be the point. Last I heard, the fuel cell stack is only good for 100k miles. That was awhile back, but any improvements haven't been really publicized(hah a z). Whether or not the fuel cell itself lasts longer, the high pressure hydrogen tanks will eventually need to be replaced at a cost over a $1000 per tank, and these cars tend to have multiple tanks.

No one from the FCV camp talks about it, CNG tanks have a shelf life that starts from date of manufacturer. Granted, type IV tanks, which use the same materials as hydrogen tanks, can have a shelf life of 20 to 25 years, but there are a couple of major differences between CNG and hydrogen. First, CNG for vehicles maxes at 3500psi vs. the 10,000psi for hydrogen. Then natural gas is a far more benign gas than hydrogen to materials.

I'm guessing manufacturers can claim these parts are good for the life of the car, which they likely mean 150k miles. That is fair span, but ICEs and hybrids aren't dead at that point, and they can be passed along to a family member or sold to someone that will use it. Even a BEV could still be usable if the remaining EV range is long enough. I suspect a FCV will require some pricy repair. Perhaps the cost will along the lines of transmission or cheaper repair on a traditional vehicle, but transmission and battery replacement isn't an absolute requirement at certain point in a car's life. Hydrogen fuel tanks will be.

 

So it'll be a pig to keep for anything other than leased. Nobody would want one second hand or an older one purely because it'll become an expensive nightmare. Like you say, many older cars that are still safe and serviceable are passed onto family members (think teens) who can still get a good few years of life out of the car before they prang it - as teens do.

Even a high mileage Tesla S with a much reduced 50 mile range would still have a use somewhere.

 

A car traction pack still has a usable life in a UPS or peak shaving system after it is 'dead' for car use. The cost to repair or replace them on a car will also come down in time as there number and third party restoring companies increase.

Perhaps a fuel cell too far gone for a car can see use as a back up generator. It may not simply die, and the car could see use where reduced performance doesn't matter. The high pressure fuel tanks are the weak link though.

 

But how can the cost of a FCV come down? It has lots and lots of platinum in it. A BEV has lots of lithium which is nowhere near as rare or expensive.

 

A lot of the read's I've come across prop up large format for hydrogen as being better, C02 wise ... making an argument to balance the high cost for putting hydrogen in cars' smaller format. However, I just read the article below which contradicts hydrogen even being good/clean for busses?!

They made an easy to read chart of the clean comparisons.
Electric buses best, hydrogen worst

I've already posted on how hydrogen busses are are more costly (maintenance wise) per mile than traditional commuter transportation, and now this. But hey, we still plow forward.
.

 

Much of the R&D directly into the fuel stack itself is in reducing the platinum content. Then there are the cost savings in going from limited number shop production to large scale factory. The price has come down. I don't think Toyota would be as keen on pushing a FCV if they were still nearly a million dollars a piece. If there wasn't a Tesla S or Volt for comparison, the price for the Mirai wouldn't seem as bad.

I think the fuel cell can have a future as a range extender, but I don't think liquid or high pressure hydrogen will be how such future ones are fueled.

 

I would just like to see a FC for my laptop that I could buy . . . not some Press Release fuel cell for a Dept. of Defense special project.

Bob Wilson

 

Part of the challenge for FCVs will also be the fact that fuel cells, as they degrade, loose performance.
With a BEV you loose range, but not performance.

It will be interesting to hear how they are recieved by those that lease them.
I'm a bit surprised we haven't heard more from the Hyundai FCV leasees. Haven't those been available since summer in CA?

 

And people moaned on here about a perceived loss of performance in Power mode after the inverter recall.

How do the manufacturers of fuel cells get round this? Do they start with a 200 bhp cell but artificially restrict it to 130 bhp to get a more stable performance over the longer period?

And regarding cost, maybe they need a giga factory?

 

That'll probably be how. BEV's are likely in the same boat, but with how much battery it takes to give acceptable range, there's plenty of buffer for the discharge rate.